# Man Cited for Paying Bill with 2,500 pennies **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 6, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471 "2011-06-06T03:06:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/41 "2011-06-07T16:05:22Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > My insurance company can insist on payment in two dollar bills? Somehow I doubt that. Please educate me. If they put that in your insurance contract, sure they can. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/42 "2011-06-07T16:07:58Z")
Well yes, but the idea seems to be I could offer to pay in fifties and the guy at the window could insist on twenties. Don’t got it? We cancel your policy. Do got the twenties? Now we want tens. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/43 "2011-06-07T16:08:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s actually the writer’s paraphrase of comments by the chief of police, who presumably would be in a position to know. > > [Direct quote of the police chief from another story:](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705373882/Police-cite-Vernal-man-accused-of-paying-bill-with-2500-pennies.html) They’re still an emotive choice of words whether the cop or the journalist used them. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And also because it’s a dick thing to do. Most people have developed sufficient character to avoid being dicks, even when they wish to. > > … in the most dickish way possible. Any reasonable person knows that if you’re going to pay in pennies, you count and roll them yourself, unless you’re trying to be a dick. This guy didn’t even deliver them in a jar. He fucking dumped them on a desk. Two-thousand, five-hundred pennies that someone is going to have to gather up, count, and roll. > > For a measly $25 dispute, this guy decided to be a major tool. Fuck him. It is a dick thing to do, but isn’t that the point? Inconveniencing someone who you beiieve has ripped you off? Handing the money over in neatly rolled pennies wouldn’t achieve that aim. And it’s not exactly a huge inconvenience to pick pennies up off the counter and floor. It’s the sort of thing where you’d usually rant about it and bar the man from coming again, but calling the cops? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/44 "2011-06-07T16:11:21Z")
Does not freedom mean the freedom to be odd and even unpleasant? I do not need freedom and legal protection behave as everyone wished me to behave. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/45 "2011-06-07T16:28:14Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Does not freedom mean the freedom to be odd and even unpleasant? I do not need freedom and legal protection behave as everyone wished me to behave. I don’t think “freedom” means the freedom to disrupt other people’s lives for no good reason. The limit of your freedom is when your shower of pennies hits another person’s desk. More seriously, whether this penny-tantrum is eventually adjudged to constitute disorderly conduct remains to be seen. But you can’t conceive of more obvious situations in which your “freedom to be odd and even unpleasant” intrudes on someone else’s right to go about his or her business without undue interference from your oddity and unpleasantness? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/46 "2011-06-07T16:32:04Z")
It seems quite obvious the guy stepped over the line. But it seems to me that he could have insisted on paying his bill as he saw fit. Lacking any policy, rule, law or contract, the agent of the organization due the money would be wrong in refusing payment. I would think the guy could have made this work, but his temper got the better of him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/47 "2011-06-07T17:29:54Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > They’re still an emotive choice of words whether the cop or the journalist used them. Who cares if it’s “emotive?” It appeares to be an accurate description of what happened. In fact it sounds like West took a container of 2,500 pennies, dumped it on the counter, and told the employees to count it. > [@](#): > > It is a dick thing to do, but isn’t that the point? Inconveniencing someone who you beiieve has ripped you off? Handing the money over in neatly rolled pennies wouldn’t achieve that aim. Yes. He was angry and decided to be a dick. It got him arrested. It happens all the time. I’m not sure what your disagreement is here. If he’d found a less moronic way to express his anger, he wouldn’t have gotten hit with a citation. He also would not have inconvenienced a bunch of people who didn’t do anything to him. His quibble was with the billing department or his insurance, not with the people who had to waste part of their work day picking up his pennies. > [@](#): > > And it’s not exactly a huge inconvenience to pick pennies up off the counter and floor. Somewhere between several hundred and 2,500? Yes, that’s a big freaking inconvenience. West acted like a jerk, so a bunch of people had to stop working and clean up his mess (and then count the pennies). I remember back in my retail days - my last day, as a matter of fact - I had a customer try to pay for something with about $30 in coins. I told him I wouldn’t accept all of it but I decided to be nice and accept maybe $20. The two of us then spent about 20 minutes trying to total up the change. He did have a lot of pennies but there were also several dollars in quarters and dimes and nickels. If you don’t know how much money is in front of you and it’s not organized, counting a huge amount of change is pretty time consuming. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/48 "2011-06-07T17:35:45Z")
Yeah, [counting $7.50 in pennies](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMimygVTgbU) (0:50) would take a significant chunk of time. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/49 "2011-06-07T17:46:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Who cares if it’s “emotive?” It appeares to be an accurate description of what happened. In fact it sounds like West took a container of 2,500 pennies, dumped it on the counter, and told the employees to count it. > Yes. He was angry and decided to be a dick. It got him arrested. It happens all the time. I’m not sure what your disagreement is here. If he’d found a less moronic way to express his anger, he wouldn’t have gotten hit with a citation. He also would not have inconvenienced a bunch of people who didn’t do anything to him. His quibble was with the billing department or his insurance, not with the people who had to waste part of their work day picking up his pennies. > Somewhere between several hundred and 2,500? Yes, that’s a big freaking inconvenience. West acted like a jerk, so a bunch of people had to stop working and clean up his mess (and then count the pennies). I remember back in my retail days - my last day, as a matter of fact - I had a customer try to pay for something with about $30 in coins. I told him I wouldn’t accept all of it but I decided to be nice and accept maybe $20. The two of us then spent about 20 minutes trying to total up the change. He did have a lot of pennies but there were also several dollars in quarters and dimes and nickels. If you don’t know how much money is in front of you and it’s not organized, counting a huge amount of change is pretty time consuming. It’s not accurate - ‘dumping’ and ‘demanded’ are both putting a value judgment on the actions. And demanded is irrelevant anyway - the staff would have had to count the money any way he delivered the pennies. If the staff involved had nothing to do with the alleged false billing, then the man is a total dick, but if they did, then he’s just getting his revenge the only way he can. Yes, it’s time-consuming - that’s the point. But it’s hardly criminal. ‘Being a dick’ doesn’t usually lead to being arrested. God, half the population would have a criminal record if that were the case. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/50 "2011-06-07T17:50:22Z")
Having read hundreds of misdemeanor police reports, I would say that a significant majority of disorderly conduct charges amount to “criminal dickishness.” ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/51 "2011-06-07T17:52:28Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Having read hundreds of misdemeanor police reports, I would say that a significant majority of disorderly conduct charges amount to “criminal dickishness.” But being a dick doesn’t get you arrested anything like as often as ‘it happens all the time.’ (I know that didn’t mean literally ‘every single time,’ but it definitely means it’s common). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/52 "2011-06-07T17:55:39Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > But being a dick doesn’t get you arrested anything like as often as ‘it happens all the time.’ (I know that didn’t mean literally ‘every single time,’ but it definitely means it’s common). In a county with a population of 75,000, if it happened 50 times a week on average, would you consider it uncommon? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/53 "2011-06-07T18:02:37Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It’s not accurate - ‘dumping’ and ‘demanded’ are both putting a value judgment on the actions. What is your basis for saying the words are not accurate? You’re wrong about the value judgments in any case. Both words are intended to describe the incident, and the fact that they make West look like an asshole does not mean they are inaccurate. “Dumping” is a physical action. It is distinct from giving, dropping, and throwing, for example. “Demand” is intended to describe his comments to the employees after that. It’s different from asked and told, for example. > [@](#): > > And demanded is irrelevant anyway - the staff would have had to count the money any way he delivered the pennies. Not if he’d delivered them in rolls. Coin rolls have labels that tell you how much change is in them. > [@](#): > > If the staff involved had nothing to do with the alleged false billing, then the man is a total dick, but if they did, then he’s just getting his revenge the only way he can. Tough shit on him, then. His dispute is probably with the billing department or his insurance, not the people who answer the phones and hand out forms at the clinic. > [@](#): > > But it’s hardly criminal. The local police feel differently. > [@](#): > > ‘Being a dick’ doesn’t usually lead to being arrested. Not all instances of being a dick are criminal, but some are. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/54 "2011-06-07T18:11:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What is your basis for saying the words are not accurate? You’re wrong about the value judgments in any case. Both words are intended to describe the incident, and the fact that they make West look like an asshole does not mean they are inaccurate. “Dumping” is a physical action. It is distinct from giving, dropping, and throwing, for example. “Demand” is intended to describe his comments to the employees after that. It’s different from asked and told, for example. > Not if he’d delivered them in rolls. Coin rolls have labels that tell you how much change is in them. > Tough shit on him, then. His dispute is probably with the billing department or his insurance, not the people who answer the phones and hand out forms at the clinic. > The local police feel differently. > Not all instances of being a dick are criminal, but some are. I don’t really know how to argue about the emotive language - if you don’t think those words are emotive, I can’t see you being persuaded to change your mind, especially when you give a definition of ‘demand’ that sounds emotive. Like I said, if the dispute is not with the staff who take the money in, then he’s just a dick, but you’re assuming that’s definitely the case. @Ascenray - that’s only relevant if those arrests comprise all ‘dickish behaviour’ events. The argument is not that nobody ever gets arrested for disorderly conduct, but that most dickish behaviour does not actually lead to arrest. TBH, I’m surprised that’s a contentious statement. TBF, I am currently fighting with multiple organisations over money owed to me, items mis-sold (ie. broken) or not delivered, and a debt I dispute, so I’m probably more sympathetic to this guy than some of you. I wouldn’t have thought I was the only one here who’d ever had protracted dealings with a company acting like complete dicks and thought this man’s response was understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/55 "2011-06-07T18:17:51Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > @Ascenray - that’s only relevant if those arrests comprise all ‘dickish behaviour’ events. The argument is not that nobody ever gets arrested for disorderly conduct, but that most dickish behaviour does not actually lead to arrest. Are you sure about that? Marley said: > [@](#): > > He was angry and decided to be a dick. It got him arrested. It happens all the time. I don’t take that to mean that “most dickish behaviour … lead to arrest.” I take it to mean that during som relatively short period of time (say, a week), someone somewhere is being arrested for dickish behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/56 "2011-06-07T18:28:24Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t really know how to argue about the emotive language - if you don’t think those words are emotive, I can’t see you being persuaded to change your mind, especially when you give a definition of ‘demand’ that sounds emotive. I don’t your claim about the words being “emotive” is even relevant. Given the facts we’ve heard, please describe the act in language you see as neutral. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t take that to mean that “most dickish behaviour … lead to arrest.” I take it to mean that during som relatively short period of time (say, a week), someone somewhere is being arrested for dickish behaviour. Right, that interpretation would be ridiculous. I was saying arrests for dickish behavior are commonplace. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/57 "2011-06-07T18:40:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Are you sure about that? Marley said: > > I don’t take that to mean that “most dickish behaviour … lead to arrest.” I take it to mean that during som relatively short period of time (say, a week), someone somewhere is being arrested for dickish behaviour. And I said that most dickish behaviour doesn’t lead to an arrest - ie. being arrested isn’t an inevitable or even common outcome to acting like a dick. > [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t your claim about the words being “emotive” is even relevant. Given the facts we’ve heard, please describe the act in language you see as neutral. I’d have to actually have seen the act to do that, wouldn’t I? But whatever - while some words are indisputable emotive, others are more subjective, so I don’t think there’s much point us debating it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/58 "2011-06-07T18:43:27Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > And I said that most dickish behaviour doesn’t lead to an arrest - ie. being arrested isn’t an inevitable or even common outcome to acting like a dick. I don’t think anyone has said it’s inevitable. As for whether it’s “common,” you seem to be ignoring my and Marley’s definition of “common.” You can have your definition if you want, but I don’t think you’ve really made a point with it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/59 "2011-06-07T18:55:42Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > But whatever - while some words are indisputable emotive, others are more subjective This is a subjective statement, isn’t it? 😉 In any case I agree this is a waste of time. [Here is a more detailed description (from a reporter who spoke to West himself) about what he did](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705373959/Peeved-patient-proud-of-penny-protest.html): > [@](#): > > “I didn’t at any time yell at them,” West said, referring to the May 27 visit that landed him in hot water. “I didn’t go on a rant. I wasn’t irate.” > > West maintains that he calmly asked the billing clerk, “Do you take cash?” He was prepared to pay with his debit card, he said, but found out that wasn’t necessary. > > “She very haughtily said, ‘Well, yes we do,’” West said. “So I said, ‘Lucky for me, I happen to have it on me.’” > > That’s when West produced a large bowl containing about 14 pounds of loose pennies from a black plastic sack and poured it onto the top counter. Some of the coins, he acknowledges, spilled onto the desk below where the receptionist was seated and onto the floor. > > “That’s just the nature of pennies,” he said. “They’re round.” You are welcome to argue this doesn’t really count as dumping, but it’s pretty much what I had in mind earlier: > [@Marley23](#): > > In fact it sounds like West took a container of 2,500 pennies, dumped it on the counter, and told the employees to count it. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471/60 "2011-06-07T19:08:11Z")
I know the OP is American, but for completeness I’ll point out that there \*\*is \*\*a [limit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#Canada) in Canada and quite a few other countries for how many coins constitute legal tender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cited-for-paying-bill-with-2-500-pennies/584471.md?page=4)