# Man cleared in rape sues his accuser **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654 "2005-12-14T22:55:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/101 "2005-12-15T16:56:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m sure you’re familar with the experiment that’s conducted sometimes in criminalistics or psyche classes in which a brief “crime” scenario is enacted in front of the class (someone pretends to snatch a purse, for instance, and there’s often a chase), the actors leave the room and the class is then asked to write down as many details as they can remember. Invariably, the accounts vary wildly as to the descriptions of the suspects, the number of people involved, the sequence of events, etc. There’s a difference between being asked to do your best to describe the events/details and being wrong and actually accusing someone and being wrong. A reasonable person would respond to “What did you see” with little qualms about being mistaken. When responding to “Is this the man?” the reasonable person would pause. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/102 "2005-12-15T16:57:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Then would you agree that we can no longer permit rape accusations alone to be sufficient evidence to convict?/quote] Since when has an accusation alone ever been sufficient anyway? > [@](#): > > That is, we adopt a rule of evidence that requires something beyond a woman’s testimony – some other piece of corroborating evidence – to convict on a rape charge. Since you point out the memories can be so stunningly wrong, I assume you’ll be in favor of this idea. That’s how it is already. I don’t know of any state where the word of the victim alone is enough to get a conviction. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/103 "2005-12-15T16:59:00Z")
> [@Nature's Call](#): > > There’s a difference between being asked to do your best to describe the events/details and being wrong and actually accusing someone and being wrong. A reasonable person would respond to “What did you see” with little qualms about being mistaken. When responding to “Is this the man?” the reasonable person would pause. Why would they pause if they were sure? Also, what makes you think she _didn’t_ pause? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/104 "2005-12-15T17:01:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Getting back to this particular case… > > Is there a significant difference in the physical attributes of the wrongly accused guy and the guy whose DNA impliacted him? As far as I can tell from the (very limited) info we have, the answer is: No. > > I still say if anyone was negligent in this case, it was the cops. They acted on info from someone who: > > 1. Significantly changed her story after the alleged attacker was found > 2. Identified the guy in the headlights of a car, soon after her attack There is no corroboration from police or prosecutors for the assertion that she changed her story and there is a man currently awaiting trial for rape. The implication that she lied to the police is not a fact in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/105 "2005-12-15T17:07:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it, along with the point about how the threat of civil liability could be used to intimidate victims. We don’t need to add MORE anxiety and trauma to the process of victims identifying attackers. It’s the responsibility of police and prosecutors to determine the credibility of the victim’s identification before they bring a suspect to trial. Police and prosecutors have received criticism in the past for doubting women who have claimed rape. Based on that criticism, most police departments now have procedures that mandate treating rape complaints vigorously. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/106 "2005-12-15T17:11:05Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no corroboration from police or prosecutors for the assertion that she changed her story and there is a man currently awaiting trial for rape. The implication that she lied to the police is not a fact in evidence. Do we know that? If one of the cites presented so far says that the police contradicted the guy’s claims, can you quote it? I didn’t see that when I read the articles. If there isn’t a direct claim from the cops, then you’re making an inference from the absence of information, which we simply cannot do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/107 "2005-12-15T17:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > [@Bricker](#): > > Then would you agree that we can no longer permit rape accusations alone to be sufficient evidence to convict?/quote] > Since when has an accusation alone ever been sufficient anyway? > > That’s how it is already. I don’t know of any state where the word of the victim alone is enough to get a conviction. Do you? In all fifty states, the word of the victim alone is sufficient to secure a conviction. Hell, man, we just spent days in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346110) discussing the case of Ruben Cantu, executed for a killing that he was tied to based on exactly one eyewitness, no more. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/108 "2005-12-15T17:16:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Do we know that? If one of the cites presented so far says that the police contradicted the guy’s claims, can you quote it? I didn’t see that when I read the articles. If there isn’t a direct claim from the cops, then you’re making an inference from the absence of information, which we simply cannot do. What I said was that there is no _corroboration_ from police or prosecutors for the allegation that she changed her story. How can I cite a lack of corroboration? If you want to assert that she changed her story, then you’re the one with the burden, not me. All you’ve got is an allegation by the guy that’s suing her. Do YOU have a dircet claim from cops or prosecutors that she changed her story? Do you have an explanation for why there’s another guy currently awaiting trial for raping her if police and prosecutors don’t believe she was raped? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/109 "2005-12-15T17:18:03Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In all fifty states, the word of the victim alone is sufficient to secure a conviction. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/110 "2005-12-15T17:19:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What I said was that there is no _corroboration_ from police or prosecutors for the allegation that she changed her story. How can I cite a lack of corroboration? If you want to assert that she changed her story, then you’re the one with the burden, not me. All you’ve got is an allegation by the guy that’s suing her. Do YOU have a dircet claim from cops or prosecutors that she changed her story? All we have is allegations from both sides. I don’t see any reason to give less weight to his word than to hers. We’re not sitting on the jury, so all we have to go by are the news articles. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/111 "2005-12-15T17:25:28Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If the woman is malicious, then certainly there’s a case. But allowing cases to go forward in which reckless disregard is the standard? I see meritorious cases of this sort as being vanishingly rare, but unmeritorious cases as carrying significant social risks. You’ve converted me. The principle of suing for damages in the reckless case, of course, is sound. It’s the execution of the principle that is fraught with difficulty - the heightened nature of rape precludes a reliable application of reasonable - and I agree, the legitimately reckless cases are likely so few and far between as to make the provision not worth the risk of its misapplication. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/112 "2005-12-15T17:29:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > All we have is allegations from both sides. I don’t see any reason to give less weight to his word than to hers. We’re not sitting on the jury, so all we have to go by are the news articles. That’s why you shouldn’t go around making accusations you can’t support. You stated that she had changed her story as if that were a known fact. It is not. I also think we can infer quite a bit from the fact that police and prosecutors have not said she changed her story and that they’re prosecuting someone else for rape. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/113 "2005-12-15T17:33:39Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why would they pause if they were sure? > > Also, what makes you think she _didn’t_ pause? Sheesh :rolleyes: … I used the word ‘pause’ as shorthand for, “more gravely assess the certainty of the accusation.” The point was if one is asked “What did you see?” one does not as gravely assess one’s certainty as much as “Is this the guy.” On the basis of a mere description I expect the cops to consider, along side all other evidence the cop has, whom to question further. On the basis of an accusation, I expect the guy to go to jail. A reasonable person would be inclined to give an off the cuff description at the investigation stage and not say, “Officer, it it my opinion that human memory is infallible so I will not provide a statement.” That same person would say if asked to accuse someone, “I’m not sure” Remember, to be reckless the accuser must be found to not be entitled to certainty. That’s the distinction to being merely mistaken. But as I’ve said, I’m convinced on the balance of benefits to society that the reckless test is ill-advised. But do you not agree that reckless accusations can exist (however difficult to prove, and however rare) and ideally would merit compensation to the accused? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/114 "2005-12-15T17:38:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s why you shouldn’t go around making accusations you can’t support. You stated that she had changed her story as if that were a known fact. In fairness, if you had read my first post on the subject you would see that I specifically said it wasn’t a fact (emphasis added): > [@JM](#): > > So, what about the point that she told the officers she had not been raped, and then changed her mind (claiming she HAD been raped) only after identifying the guy? > > That’s his allegation, of course, and is not established fact. Sorry if I was sloppy later and didn’t continue that train of thought. I don’t see that there are any facts of this case, other than that the wrong guy was detained for several days. It’s unclear to me that a rape even took place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/115 "2005-12-15T17:39:30Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > [@Bricker](#): > > Bullshit. Let me elaborate. I’m not talking about some general theory of law. I’m talking about what happens in practice. It’s no secret that rape is one of the most difficult crimes to prosecute and to get a conviction. Prosecutors _in practice_ will not even _bring_ a case on an accusation alone unless there is _something_ corroborative to go with the accusation. It may not be physical evidence, but they at least have to show that the suspect had, for instance, opportunity. If the suspect was in a different state at the time, then the word of the witness is not enough. I can’t just call the police right now and tell them Dick Cheney raped me and expect anyone to press charges. I also think there’s quite a difference in the reasonable standard that should be expected between whether a woman should be able to remember the simmple fact that she raped and whether she should reasonably be expected to make no mistake in identifying a _stranger_ as the assailant. ---
**Author:** ![Pietro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@Pietro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pietro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/116 "2005-12-15T17:41:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [**Bricker** says that in all 50 states, the testimony of the victim alone is enough for a conviction] > Bullshit. Not Bullshit. If the state introduces evidence tending to prove each element of the crime, no matter how weak or uncorroborated, the jury is entitled to believe that evidence. (Didn’t you ever see _To Kill A Mockingbird_?) I think in a lot of situations where the state’s only evidence was the word of the victim, the defense might be able to put on enough evidence to get a directed verdict of not guilty (and some judges might grant a pre-trial motion to dismiss), and the case would not go to the jury. But if it gets to trial, and the entire trial consists of opening statements, the alleged victim’s testimony, and closing arguments, legally speaking the jury has enough evidence to convict. Practically speaking, they probably shouldn’t, although in such a case one couldn’t help but wonder what the hell the defense lawyer was thinking when he or she failed to call the cops to the stand to ask them about the complete lack of any “real evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/117 "2005-12-15T17:47:41Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > In fairness, if you had read my first post on the subject you would see that I specifically said it wasn’t a fact (emphasis added): > Sorry if I was sloppy later and didn’t continue that train of thought. I didn’t read or didn’t remember your first post, I responding to this > [@John Mace](#): > > I still say if anyone was negligent in this case, it was the cops. They acted on info from someone who: > > 1. Significantly changed her story after the alleged attacker was found > 2. Identified the guy in the headlights of a car, soon after her attack That sure sounded like you were assuming it as a fact and drawing a conclusion from it. I hope you can understand why I would respond to it as such. > [@](#): > > I don’t see that there are any facts of this case, other than that the wrong guy was detained for several days. It’s unclear to me that a rape even took place. Except for the fact that another guy is currently facing rape charges and that they took his DNA from the victim. Unless you’re going to hypothecize that the victim had consensual sex with a stranger and then decided to report it as rape, I think it’s safe to assume that she was raped. At least the police and the prosecutors believe she was raped. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/118 "2005-12-15T17:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Let me elaborate. I’m not talking about some general theory of law. I’m talking about what happens in practice. It’s no secret that rape is one of the most difficult crimes to prosecute and to get a conviction. Prosecutors _in practice_ will not even _bring_ a case on an accusation alone unless there is _something_ corroborative to go with the accusation. It may not be physical evidence, but they at least have to show that the suspect had, for instance, opportunity. If the suspect was in a different state at the time, then the word of the witness is not enough. I can’t just call the police right now and tell them Dick Cheney raped me and expect anyone to press charges. Why do you believe this to be true for rape, and yet in the arguably more serious crime of murder, I just reminded you of a case in which the word of one eyewitness was the ONLY EVIDENCE tying the accused to the crime? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/119 "2005-12-15T17:52:23Z")
> [@Pietro](#): > > Not Bullshit. If the state introduces evidence tending to prove each element of the crime, no matter how weak or uncorroborated, the jury is entitled to believe that evidence. (Didn’t you ever see _To Kill A Mockingbird_?) I think in a lot of situations where the state’s only evidence was the word of the victim, the defense might be able to put on enough evidence to get a directed verdict of not guilty (and some judges might grant a pre-trial motion to dismiss), and the case would not go to the jury. But if it gets to trial, and the entire trial consists of opening statements, the alleged victim’s testimony, and closing arguments, legally speaking the jury has enough evidence to convict. Practically speaking, they probably shouldn’t, although in such a case one couldn’t help but wonder what the hell the defense lawyer was thinking when he or she failed to call the cops to the stand to ask them about the complete lack of any “real evidence.” See above. I was talking about what happens in practice, not in theory. I thought it was disingenuous for **Bricker** to suggest that rape charges are commonly (or ever) prosecuted in _practice_ on nothing but the uncorroborated word of an accuser. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654/120 "2005-12-15T17:59:30Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why do you believe this to be true for rape, and yet in the arguably more serious crime of murder, I just reminded you of a case in which the word of one eyewitness was the ONLY EVIDENCE tying the accused to the crime? I wish it were true of murder as well. I don’t think that the mere word of a witness, uncorroborated by anything else, is sufficient to meet the reasonable doubt burden. Personally, I think eyewitness testimony is about the most unreliable evidence there is. I don’t like to take anybody’s word for anything and I don’t think I could destroy someone’s life if I didn’t have something else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-cleared-in-rape-sues-his-accuser/335654.md?page=7)