# Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331 "2020-10-19T17:41:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/1 "2020-10-19T17:41:07Z")
> **[German citizenship denied for refusal to shake woman's hand – DW – 10/17/2020](https://www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947)** > > The man aced the German naturalization test, but refused to shake hands with the female official handing over his citizenship. Despite claims he will not shake hands with men either, his citizenship has been rejected. Not sure what I think about this. On one hand, making citizenship conditional on physical contact with a stranger seems kind of dodgy. On the other, we’re always told we shouldn’t tolerate intolerance. On the third hand, it’s a shame @ZPG_Zealot was banned and isn’t around to give her opinion… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/2 "2020-10-19T17:53:08Z")
I saw this story recently and very briefly wondered whether it was to be believed or not. Decided it was too ridiculous to pursue whichever way it turned out. I mean honestly, neither side has much in the way of a good argument for its position. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/3 "2020-10-19T17:53:48Z")
I’d say that at the very least, it seems a bit ungrateful to be unwilling to shake a hand that one time with the representative of the nation who’s granting you their citizenship, which they are under NO obligation to do. And it’s a fundamental social convention in Germany, not Lebanon, where that guy’s from. I’m generally of the opinion that if you’re getting citizenship somewhere else and planning to live your life there, you have an obligation to try and become that other nationality as much as is feasible. Learn the language, abide by the social norms, dress, behavior, speech, etc… It seems extremely… impolite, or maybe selfish to go get citizenship somewhere else and then continue to live your life like you did wherever you came from. I mean, if that guy wants to act Lebanese, he should have stayed in Lebanon. But if he’s going to live in Germany, he needs to learn to act German, handshakes and all. And FWIW, Denmark has the same rule- no handshake, no citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/4 "2020-10-19T17:55:57Z")
This is a bizarro story, but I lean slightly in favor of the man here. Suppose that it were a German custom to eat pork and drink beer as a gesture of…I dunno, “get to know you” or politeness. And Muslims objected to eating pork. Would we consider him as ridiculous? It is a rather absurd requirement for citizenship for something that ought to be based off of test-passing and civics knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/5 "2020-10-19T17:58:00Z")
I’m not the least bit tolerant of this kind of religious nuttery. But it’s not like shaking hands is some foreign concept in Lebanon. The guy is obviously a zealot of the dumbest kind. However, it does seem like pretty shaky ground on which to deny citizenship. Especially in a time of a pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/6 "2020-10-19T17:58:26Z")
Can I put in a hypothetical as well? What if you had to give a blowjob to the person naturalizing you? How would you like that?? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/7 "2020-10-19T17:59:08Z")
Spit or swallow? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/8 "2020-10-19T18:00:05Z")
The Germans don’t owe that guy squat. If he doesn’t want to toe the line, whatever line they choose, then they have every right to tell him to go pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/9 "2020-10-19T18:00:23Z")
I’d be OK with spitting. But, swallowing? That’s as bad as being forced to eat pork and drink beer, a totally reasonable hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/10 "2020-10-19T18:03:10Z")
I was not dictating German immigration policy. Clearly they can do what they like. All I said was that neither side has the winning argument here. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/11 "2020-10-19T18:03:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Suppose that it were a German custom to eat pork and drink beer as a gesture of…I dunno, “get to know you” or politeness. And Muslims objected to eating pork. Would we consider him as ridiculous? The thing that’s ridiculous is supposing that this is remotely analagous. I don’t know if I agree with the ruling, but obviously (as the ruling stated) it depends entirely on him being willing to shake hands with a man, but not a woman. In other words - it’s not the shaking hands part that’s the principal element here, it’s the misogyny. It’s a question of discerning his _reason_ for not being willing to shake her hand. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/12 "2020-10-19T18:06:30Z")
According to the article, not shaking hands is a sign of being a fundamentalist nutter, and they’re not interested in letting them in as German citizens. Seems reasonable to me. I have to figure there’s more to it than this article indicates, otherwise Denmark, which is widely regarded as a tolerant and reasonable place, wouldn’t have implemented the exact same policy. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/13 "2020-10-19T18:09:49Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Seems reasonable to me. I have to figure there’s more to it than this article indicates, otherwise **Denmark, which is widely regarded as a tolerant and reasonable place** , wouldn’t have implemented the exact same policy. I think your information may be a tad out of date there… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/14 "2020-10-19T18:11:38Z")
Let’s suppose that it wasn’t about religion or culture, but rather, that a man just happened to be intensely OCD germophobic and didn’t want to shake hands. Would that still be grounds for rejecting citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/15 "2020-10-19T18:13:21Z")
For clarification, I do think the man is nutty, it’s just that I don’t think a handshake should be a hill for the German officials to die on. They should just shrug, roll eyes, and move on. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/16 "2020-10-19T18:13:24Z")
You’d have to convince me that ‘will not shake hands’ is an effective test for preventing fundamentalist nuttery. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/17 "2020-10-19T18:14:44Z")
This isn’t even a new story. Pissing off the bureaucrat who has the power to sign off (or not!) that you are well-integrated into society and therefore eligible for citizenship is an excellent way to get your application denied in many countries, not just Germany. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/18 "2020-10-19T18:15:04Z")
Here’s some more information that I gleamed from Reddit. IF you speak German, here’s [the actual judgement](http://lrbw.juris.de/cgi-bin/laender_rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bw&GerichtAuswahl=Verwaltungsgerichte&Art=en&sid=2baf%200ea965e2e50fd367c7ff8ff38656&nr=27204&pos=0&anz=2) > It wasn’t “just” refusing a handshake, According to the [judgement](http://lrbw.juris.de/cgi-bin/laender_rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bw&GerichtAuswahl=Verwaltungsgerichte&Art=en&sid=2baf%200ea965e2e50fd367c7ff8ff38656&nr=27204&pos=0&anz=2) he also avoided clear answers to the questions how he views bodily punishment for infidelity in marriage or amputation for theft. Instead he just stated that “God is merciful” and he “doesn’t live in a country where those exist”. > > To the question whether Sharia law should be introduced in Germany, he replied that the German people would have to decide whether to do that. When informed that the core parts of Sharia, family and marriage laws are subject to Sura 4,34 (Men are caretakers of women. Rightous woman are obedient" _[shortened]_ , and thus incompatible with core principles of the German constitutional order, he avoided a clear answer by stating that “before God, men and women are equal”. > > To the question how he views that according to Islamic canon the prophet Mohammed consummated marriage with a nine year old girl, he replied that “in some countries girls are more mature than, for example, in Norway”. > > So the judgement wasn’t “just” for the handshake, but an overall conclusion that he held views hostile to the German free and democratic constitutional order and thus couldn’t become a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/19 "2020-10-19T18:15:57Z")
Here’s the text in the article that I’m talking about: > The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a “fundamentalist conception of culture and values” because they see women as “a danger of sexual temptation” was thereby rejecting “integration into German living conditions.” Seems like about as good of a limbo stick as any other, _if_ you’re concerned with keeping religious extremists out of your country. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/20 "2020-10-19T18:16:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s suppose that it wasn’t about religion or culture, but rather, that a man just happened to be intensely OCD germophobic and didn’t want to shake hands. Would that still be grounds for rejecting citizenship? It sure doesn’t sound like it: > [@article](#): > > The court found that anyone who refuses to shake hands on gender-specific grounds is in breach of the equality enshrined in the German constitution. > > In addition, the man’s refusal in this case had the effect of lending validity to a “Salafist perspective” on the social ramifications of relations between men and women. > > The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either. > > The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move. AIUI, it’s like this: 1. Man refuses to shake hands with an official because she’s a woman. He would have shaken hands with a man in the same position. He specifically says he promised his wife he woudln’t shake hands with a woman. 2. Germany says fuck off, you can’t discriminate like that in official business. 3. Man says, “Okay, fine, I won’t shake hands with men anymore either, happy now?” 4. Germany says fuck off, this all started because of your sexist behavior, you can’t retroactively change your reasons. I’m pretty okay with Germany’s decision, _given the man’s stated reason for not shaking hands in the first place_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331.md?page=2)