# Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331 "2020-10-19T17:41:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/21 "2020-10-19T18:20:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You’d have to convince me that ‘will not shake hands’ is an effective test for preventing fundamentalist nuttery. But if it is - if a fundamentalist extremist cult decides that shaking hands with women is a signifier of loyalty to the cult - I see no reason that we shouldn’t use that test to let people tell us who they are. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m pretty okay with Germany’s decision, _given the man’s stated reason for not shaking hands in the first place_ . Exactly. And no problem simultaneously admitting someone to citizenship if they have _bona fide_ reasons for something similar - say a germaphobe who dislikes shaking hands with anyone of either sex, but will do it with a glove on, say. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/22 "2020-10-19T18:22:06Z")
I’m wondering ifl he were Christian, he would have been quizzed about my views of the punishments dictated in the Biblical canon. Somehow I doubt that would have happened. I’m also wondering if the official who quizzed him about his religious beliefs thinks those German citizens who do not shake hands with members of the opposite gender should lose German citizenship. No, I’m not defending misogyny here, but rather condemning an obviously, IMHO, religiously based test which, AFAIK is not permitted under German law. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/23 "2020-10-19T18:29:31Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m wondering ifl he were Christian, he would have been quizzed about my views of the punishments dictated in the Biblical canon According to the above, he wasn’t asked about what the Quran or whatever said about those punishments, he was asked about what he thought. I think if you asked a Christian whether someone should be stoned to death for adultery and that Christian said yes, he would have a similarly hard time getting citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/24 "2020-10-19T18:29:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The Germans don’t owe that guy squat. If he doesn’t want to toe the line, whatever line they choose, then they have every right to tell him to go pound sand. But is this line actually the law? Was it clearly the case that shaking hands was a condition of citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/25 "2020-10-19T18:31:11Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > According to the above, he wasn’t asked about what the Quran or whatever said about those punishments, he was asked about what he thought. I think if you asked a Christian whether someone should be stoned to death for adultery and that Christian said yes, he would have a similarly hard time getting citizenship. I mean, it is an interesting question, though. Would a Christian even have been asked? Are Christian immigrants from, say, the US regularly asked about their views on same-sex marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/26 "2020-10-19T18:31:18Z")
How do you understand the term “according to Islamic canon”? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/27 "2020-10-19T18:32:33Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Seems like about as good of a limbo stick as any other, _if_ you’re concerned with keeping religious extremists out of your country. > [@Riemann](#): > > But if it is - if a fundamentalist extremist cult decides that shaking hands with women is a signifier of loyalty to the cult - I see no reason that we shouldn’t use that test to let people tell us who they are. Look, I’m not trying to defend the fundamentalist misogynist nut, nor trying to dictate German immigration laws. But the guy was a legal resident of Germany since 2012 (according to article). Seems those were reasonable questions to ask when considering giving him legal residence status. Having reread the article more carefully, it’s possible he became more fundamentalist in the interim. It does beg the questions of whether naturalized citizenship may be denied based on similar fundamentalist values. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/28 "2020-10-19T18:38:40Z")
From the above, it looks like he refused to directly answer questions about some of the more extreme aspects of Sharia, and having sex with 9 year-olds. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/29 "2020-10-19T18:39:38Z")
A Christian probably would not be asked the same questions. ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/30 "2020-10-19T18:47:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are Christian immigrants from, say, the US regularly asked about their views on same-sex marriage? Probably not, but that’s because sexual orientation is not (yet) covered by the “liberal democratic basic order” that every candidate must conform to. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/31 "2020-10-19T19:31:00Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > Probably not, but that’s because sexual orientation is not (yet) covered by the “liberal democratic basic order” that every candidate must conform to. watnow? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/32 "2020-10-19T19:32:11Z")
> **[Liberal democratic basic order](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democratic_basic_order)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The liberal democratic basic order (German: freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung (FDGO)) is a fundamental term in German constitutional law. It determines the unalienable, invariable core structure of the German commonwealth. As such, it is the core substance of the German constitution. Building upon more general definitions of liberal democracy, the term has a specific legal meaning in Germany and is part of the German (originally West German... ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/33 "2020-10-19T19:42:58Z")
Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/34 "2020-10-19T19:48:21Z")
If this had happened in the US, it appears the man could have gone on to the Vice-Presidency. Also … apropos of nothing … [![](https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/PjfimN3ysbSTVimY4lLzjxcRoAk=/800x579/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/UCJEDXXYWYEMZ4OMQGUXBP3N7I.jpg) ](https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/PjfimN3ysbSTVimY4lLzjxcRoAk=/800x579/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/UCJEDXXYWYEMZ4OMQGUXBP3N7I.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/35 "2020-10-19T20:56:46Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’d be OK with spitting. But, swallowing? That’s as bad as being forced to eat pork and drink beer, a totally reasonable hypothetical. In [1857](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857#The_Enfield_rifle), even spitting was considered intolerable 😁 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/36 "2020-10-19T21:22:48Z")
> [@bump](#): > > According to the article, not shaking hands is a sign of being a fundamentalist nutter, and they’re not interested in letting them in as German citizens. Which is exactly why it’s wrong. You’ve just described a religious test for citizenship. And that violates the man’s human rights. Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. His religious beliefs, no matter what they are, are not relevant. Only religious practices can be relevant–if they cause harm. But you don’t have any sign of the guy performing any harmful religious acts. The only religious act in question is not shaking hands, which harms no one. And, yes, I know many atheists hate religion. But I continue to point out that freedom of religion is the only reason why atheism is not illegal. Historically, it was seen as a dangerous belief. Freedom of religion is listed by the [Universal Declaration of Human Rights ](https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/) for a reason. These countries should not be able to treat even a non-citizen differently because of their religious beliefs. And this nonsense is exactly why I had sympathy for the “handshake is forcing your culture on others” aspect. Because, in these cases, it very much seems to be. There are even laws that are cited that are about having a cultural value. And those cultural values generally align with what one ethnicity says–those who were “ethnically” German or “ethnically” French made the rules for everyone. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/37 "2020-10-19T21:29:32Z")
I will note that ultra-Orthodox Jews have similar rules regarding touching women who are not their wives or family members, even with handshakes. Do those folks get denied citizenship for refusing to shake hands? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/38 "2020-10-19T21:39:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And those cultural values generally align with what one ethnicity says–those who were “ethnically” German or “ethnically” French made the rules for everyone. Yuck. Huh? The Germans make the rules for German citizenship and the French make the rules for French citizenship. Who do you think should be making them, Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/39 "2020-10-19T22:42:56Z")
Which does not answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/40 "2020-10-19T22:51:00Z")
From what I can tell, this is the straight dope. Thanks. Google Translation of the “guiding principles” of the ruling itself: > _Respect for the_ [liberal democratic basic order] _requires that the naturalization applicant unconditionally accepts the powers of the democratically legitimized legislature to legislate, even if the state law is in contradiction to (supposed or actual) religious commandments._ > […] > _Inadequate lip service is given, for example, if the naturalization applicant avoids clear answers to questions from the court that allow conclusions to be drawn about his understanding of Islam and his attitude to the_ [liberal democratic basic order]. He was subject to the extra scrutiny because the government identified him as a member of this Islamic Community of Germany, which the government says is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, which the government says wants to establish a dictatorial or totalitarian system of government and is not committed to the principles of self-determination, freedom of speech, or equality of people. He was not rejected because of mere association with this religious community, he was rejected because the government claims that he puts religion before the liberal democratic basic order. They think his excuse about making a promise to his wife is a lie, and present arguments to that effect (for example, he is a doctor in a public hospital and regularly has to touch women). The religious test, specific to Islam, was administered _before_ the handshake thing. He took the religious test, gave vague answers, and was cleared for naturalization. _Then_ he went to pick up the certificate and refused the handshake, _then_ the government went back and said, ‘nevermind, now we think you were lying about your committment to the liberal democratic basic order’. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331.md?page=3)