# Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331 "2020-10-19T17:41:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/41 "2020-10-19T22:57:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > No, I’m not defending misogyny here, but rather condemning an obviously, IMHO, religiously based test which, AFAIK is not permitted under German law. In my own mind, this case tells me that Germans demand ideological committment to the liberal democratic basic order over personal beliefs as a condition _for naturalization_. The fact that the ICG still exists in Germany indicates that, once they are citizens, those personal beliefs are protected under the basic law. Sort of how the U.S. deals with (dealt with?) communism as an existential threat. I see parallels, at least. Paradox of tolerance and such. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/42 "2020-10-19T23:05:38Z")
He should have clicked his heels together and bowed from his waist, Prussian officer-style. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/43 "2020-10-19T23:41:02Z")
Followed by a Bellamy salute. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/44 "2020-10-20T00:25:22Z")
Communism is not a religion. Also, as I mentioned above, I seriously doubt had he been Christian (or even Jewish), he would have been quizzed about the Biblical commandments to stone certain people and to commit genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/45 "2020-10-20T00:47:09Z")
Toeing the line and doing whatever they say has a bad history in Germany. Cite: see Nuremberg trials. Also, mandatory handshake in the midst of a global pandemic? WTF ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/46 "2020-10-20T01:46:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The religious test, specific to Islam, was administered _before_ the handshake thing. He took the religious test, gave vague answers, and was cleared for naturalization. _Then_ he went to pick up the certificate and refused the handshake, _then_ the government went back and said, ‘nevermind, now we think you were lying about your committment to the liberal democratic basic order’. Upon review, this was wrong. The court asked him the questions in 2019 after he had been rejected in 2016, after he had filed the lawsuit. In the opinion of the court, by failing to disown specific political positions associated with the Islamic religion, he was purposely being evasive and even espoused partly unconstitutional views. Paragraphs 56-65. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/47 "2020-10-20T01:56:01Z")
Germans declaring certain religious views … um, verboten? Guess somebody didn’t really understand a certain period in world history did they? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/48 "2020-10-20T03:34:43Z")
Is this requirement settled law in Germany, that the applicant could have known about before beginning the citizenship process? Or was it just sprung upon him at the end as some detail of pageantry? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/49 "2020-10-20T09:21:42Z")
It’s not the Germans dying on this hill. They didn’t ask him to become a citizen. He’s the one who’s not getting what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/50 "2020-10-20T11:52:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Suppose that it were a German custom to eat pork and drink beer as a gesture of…I dunno, “get to know you” or politeness. And Muslims objected to eating pork. Would we consider him as ridiculous? There was some hubbub in France a few years back about a halal grocery refusing to sell pork. So it’s not that odd an example. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/51 "2020-10-20T12:00:19Z")
> [@Ranch\_Dip](#): > > Also, mandatory handshake in the midst of a global pandemic? WTF This happened in 2015. And as many have pointed out, it’s not about the handshake (or its refusal), but what it represents. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/52 "2020-10-20T13:09:43Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Upon review, this was wrong. The court asked him the questions in 2019 after he had been rejected in 2016, after he had filed the lawsuit. In the opinion of the court, by failing to disown specific political positions associated with the Islamic religion, he was purposely being evasive and even espoused partly unconstitutional views. Paragraphs 56-65. > > ~Max This shines an entirely new light on the circumstances under which he was denied citizenship. Now my thinking is that he was given every opportunity to be in compliance with German social norms and principles. He chose his own to prove a point, knowingly. He can fuck off to whichever country will accept him and his fundamentalist bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/53 "2020-10-20T13:17:24Z")
Yeah, I’m not feeling a huge amount of sympathy for him to be honest. The fact that his apparent misogyny comes from a religious background is neither here nor there. It is no more relevant than if he had racist views which spring from a deeply held political position or even just from a personal preference. He is free to have whatever views he likes but the country offering citizenship also have the right to decide if such views (or any views) are a net benefit to the country itself and whether he would be a good fit. Especially if the views manifest in actual behaviours and impact on other citizens. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/54 "2020-10-20T15:47:08Z")
Misogyny from anyone, of any religion, should not be tolerated. I’m glad they didn’t grant him citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/55 "2020-10-20T19:15:57Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > There was some hubbub in France a few years back about a halal grocery refusing to sell pork. So it’s not that odd an example. I look forward to having my first kosher cheeseburger the next time I visit France. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/56 "2020-10-21T02:42:07Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > he also avoided clear answers to the questions I leaned German until I read this. He’s required to give an explicit rejection of the text in order to become German? That indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam. Islam is mostly a religion of orthopraxis, not orthodoxy. There are the pillars, everything else is negotiable. Except that ‘what he does’ includes explicit rejection of the text. That’s the one thing he can’t compromise on. He can’t say that the text is wrong, only that in Germany, he’ll have to act like a German. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2020, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/57 "2020-10-21T06:49:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Guess somebody didn’t really understand a certain period in world history did they? I’d suggest that the Germans are well versed in what happens when someone has a view that certain groups should be somehow thought of, or treated as “lesser” or “other”. Again, whether that is religiously, politically or personally motivated seems irrelevant when it comes to an immigration application. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/58 "2020-10-26T16:52:41Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > That’s the one thing he can’t compromise on. He can’t say that the text is wrong literally fundamentalism The German courts seem to take the position that Islamic fundamentalism contradicts their liberal democratic basic order. German law requires an oath of commitment to the liberal democratic basic order as a prerequisite for naturalization. Given the premises, it makes sense for Germany to require a disavowal of those specific Islamic fundamental tenets before granting citizenship. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/59 "2020-10-26T21:50:57Z")
In essence you’d just banned all practicing Muslims from Germany. One of the tenets of Islam is that the Koran is literally dictated by God. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331/60 "2020-10-26T23:14:49Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > Misogyny from anyone, of any religion, should not be tolerated. I’m glad they didn’t grant him citizenship. Do you think Germany should deny citizenship to ultra-Orthodox Jews, who also will not shake hands with someone of the opposite sex? That would look pretty bad in light of Germany’s history – would you make an exception in that case? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/923331.md?page=4)