# Man dies in motorcycle accident - while protesting helmet law. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 3, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729 "2011-07-03T16:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/41 "2011-07-05T04:13:28Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > [Indeed](http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/death_of_motorcyclist_during_h.html).You know, she’d have a valid point, if this debate took place in the context of a libertarian or anarchist dystopia. > > Lady, it’s _not_ your own risk, because other people will undoubtedly pay for the consequences of your failure to use reasonable safety measures in innumerable ways, and your asinine group will _also_ protest any attempt to compromise by allowing you to choose that risk without unfairly requiring people who _aren’t_ morons to subsidize it. “Well, we’ve put the data into an actuarial table and this is how much it’s going to cost if we spread the projected risk out among the ratepayers who want to have the option to go helmet-less.” “We can’t possibly pay that, that’s impossible!” “Yeah, okay - how about you agree to carry $20,000 personal injury insurance? Still nowhere near fair to everyone else, but it’s a pretty attractive compromise.” “Fascist! Let the rider decide!” > > You know, I have no great love of stupid people (and there is a very strong correlation between vocal objection to traffic safety legislation and being approximately as smart as a rock) and I would be _all_ for allowing them the freedom to dash their brains out on the pavement if that’s what they really want to do - if I wasn’t going to have to subsidize it and it wasn’t going to affect anyone else in any way. > > Here in BC, our medical services deal with about 5,000 brain injuries a year. If any of those are preventable, they should effing well be _prevented_. I don’t want to have to wait longer for rehab to accomodate some idiot that wouldn’t be there at all if he didn’t worry that wearing a helmet made him look a little bit dorky. (“Hey, that drool on your chin looks pretty badass - you’re _such_ a rebel!”) I disagree. The government shouldn’t be legislating what people do unless they’re endangering or harming somebody else. And that should be limited to direct harm not to some vague idea that a person can become a burden on society in general. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/42 "2011-07-05T04:52:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. The government shouldn’t be legislating what people do unless they’re endangering or harming somebody else. And that should be limited to direct harm not to some vague idea that a person can become a burden on society in general. My car lost its wipers one night during a minor rainstorm. I was only a couple of blocks from home, so I decided to roll the window down and drive home with my head outside the car. A drop of rain hit me in the left eye at the 25-ish miles-per-hour that I was travelling, plus however fast a drop of rain falls. My eye finally stopped tearing up so that I could actually _see_ out of it several hours later. Imagine riding a bike, helmetless, at 60 or 70 miles-per-hour on a road with loose gravel. Or during cicada spawning. Or whenever pretty much anything non-fluffy is falling out of the sky. You’re less likely to lose control of your fast-moving hunk of steel if you have on a helmet to deflect, absorb, or minimize the head shots you take. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/43 "2011-07-05T05:00:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. The government shouldn’t be legislating what people do unless they’re endangering or harming somebody else. And that should be limited to direct harm not to some vague idea that a person can become a burden on society in general. There is a direct harm, though. A brain injury can be expected to cost between half a million and two million dollars. It’s pretty rare for these costs the be covered out-of-pocket - it’s going to be paid from insurance, and premiums are tied to payouts. If a significant number of people insist on the freedom to forego safety equipment that can prevent avoidable injuries, then they are compelling everyone else to absorb the costs of the predictable consequences. That’s not vague - there are going to be more head injuries and as soon as the actuaries have the statistics then hey, you’ve got a new rate. When you talk about what the government should or shouldn’t do, you have to think in terms of how best to represent the interests of the populace. The laws are for us, and everybody has rights - but your rights have to stop at my nose. It’s well and good to say “He should have the right to determine for himself how much safety is appropriate,” but you have to make some projections about where it’s going and what the consequences will be. Does that mean nobody should ever be allowed to do anything risky? Of course not, but we do have to do what we can to mitigate the risk. Wanna go skydiving? Knock yourself out! But wear a helmet, so you don’t knock yourself out, because losing consciousness at 5,000 feet sucks, and you’re gonna hit your head once in a while when you land, anyway. These sorts of regulations are exactly what government is for, as near as I can make out. (But then, I’m not American, and there are certain ideas that many U.S. citizens hold about the proper role of government that are very difficult to explain to those of us on the outside.) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/44 "2011-07-05T05:07:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Judging by the locals around here, they’ll suck down a few beers at the local biker bar and loudly proclaim that he lived and died the way he wanted to. In other words, no change. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/45 "2011-07-05T05:12:59Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That cyclist… man. There’s no irony like lethal irony. If by “no” you mean “no better,” I disagree. The best irony is when the offender sticks around to appreicate it. ---
**Author:** ![Linguini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ab097/32.png) [@Linguini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linguini)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/46 "2011-07-06T01:42:59Z")
Maybe he opposed wearing a helmet because it messed up his hair. Unfortunately, blood and grey matter don’t wash out very well. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/47 "2011-07-06T03:42:43Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > If by “no” you mean “no better,” I disagree. The best irony is when the offender sticks around to appreicate it. That wouldn’t have made for nearly as good a story in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/48 "2011-07-06T07:05:48Z")
Luckily your head is completely safe in a car, else they’d have to enact laws covering that too. ---
**Author:** ![CatherineZeta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@CatherineZeta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatherineZeta)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/49 "2011-07-06T07:13:15Z")
I’m purchasing a bicycle and will never ride without a helmet (I do know lots of people who do though and it sucks). I was eating dinner with my friends yesterday (well technically 2 days ago as it’s after midnight) at an outdoor restaurant and we witnessed a cab totally t-bone a cyclist in the intersection. The dude was not wearing a helmet and obviously had a a nasty head injury- he was conscious and aware of what had happened so hopefully he’ll be relatively all right, but presumably he would have been feeling much better had he been wearing a helmet. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/50 "2011-07-06T09:20:22Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > My car lost its wipers one night during a minor rainstorm. I was only a couple of blocks from home, so I decided to roll the window down and drive home with my head outside the car. > > A drop of rain hit me in the left eye at the 25-ish miles-per-hour that I was travelling, plus however fast a drop of rain falls. My eye finally stopped tearing up so that I could actually _see_ out of it several hours later. > > Imagine riding a bike, helmetless, at 60 or 70 miles-per-hour on a road with loose gravel. Or during cicada spawning. Or whenever pretty much anything non-fluffy is falling out of the sky. > > You’re less likely to lose control of your fast-moving hunk of steel if you have on a helmet to deflect, absorb, or minimize the head shots you take. Where did I say it was a good idea to ride a motorcycle without a helmet? You’d be an idiot to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Of course, you’re probably an idiot to ride a motorcycle at all - they’re more dangerous than driving a car and there’s no need to drive a motorcycle. So if we ban helmetless motorcycle riding as dangerous, shouldn’t we also ban all motorcycle driving? And if you disagree, explain why one risk is acceptable and the other is not. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/51 "2011-07-06T09:23:56Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > There is a direct harm, though. A brain injury can be expected to cost between half a million and two million dollars. It’s pretty rare for these costs the be covered out-of-pocket - it’s going to be paid from insurance, and premiums are tied to payouts. That’s not direct harm. Direct harm is when you hit me with your motorcycle not when you smack your own head onto the road. If we’re talking indirect harm, should society be able to regulate other behaviors that risk medical costs? ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/52 "2011-07-06T09:30:15Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I’ve loved riding motorcycles for years. During that time, I’ve never loved crashing. Same here - Helmets rule ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/53 "2011-07-06T09:59:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if we ban helmetless motorcycle riding as dangerous, shouldn’t we also ban all motorcycle driving? And if you disagree, explain why one risk is acceptable and the other is not. Most rider are better all round drivers - and its not the motorbike that is dangorous its the dumb ass car driver who thinks he does not need to be aware of other road user around him that is the danger. Your car is safe so why bother - so take out the airbag, seat belts, side impack bars the roll cage in the cars and see how safe they are. Helmets are there to help prevent injury as is the airbag. but so is a high vis vest - I use it to ensure drivers who are so safe ‘i can change lane without indicating or looking’ see me ‘when they bother to look’ ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/54 "2011-07-06T10:44:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Where did I say it was a good idea to ride a motorcycle without a helmet? You’d be an idiot to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Of course, you’re probably an idiot to ride a motorcycle at all - they’re more dangerous than driving a car and there’s no need to drive a motorcycle. > > So if we ban helmetless motorcycle riding as dangerous, shouldn’t we also ban all motorcycle driving? And if you disagree, explain why one risk is acceptable and the other is not. What you said was > [@](#): > > The government shouldn’t be legislating what people do unless they’re endangering or harming somebody else. I was pointing out that helmetless riding can endanger or harm someone else. Your questions about what we should ban are unrealistic. Should we ban cars because seatbelts are generally required? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/55 "2011-07-06T11:12:02Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > There is a direct harm, though. A brain injury can be expected to cost between half a million and two million dollars. It’s pretty rare for these costs the be covered out-of-pocket - it’s going to be paid from insurance, and premiums are tied to payouts. > > If a significant number of people insist on the freedom to forego safety equipment that can prevent avoidable injuries, then they are compelling everyone else to absorb the costs of the predictable consequences. That’s not vague - there are going to be more head injuries and as soon as the actuaries have the statistics then hey, you’ve got a new rate. > > When you talk about what the government should or shouldn’t do, you have to think in terms of how best to represent the interests of the populace. The laws are for us, and everybody has rights - but your rights have to stop at my nose. It’s well and good to say “He should have the right to determine for himself how much safety is appropriate,” but you have to make some projections about where it’s going and what the consequences will be. > > Does that mean nobody should ever be allowed to do anything risky? Of course not, but we do have to do what we can to mitigate the risk. Wanna go skydiving? Knock yourself out! But wear a helmet, so you don’t knock yourself out, because losing consciousness at 5,000 feet sucks, and you’re gonna hit your head once in a while when you land, anyway. > > These sorts of regulations are exactly what government is for, as near as I can make out. (But then, I’m not American, and there are certain ideas that many U.S. citizens hold about the proper role of government that are very difficult to explain to those of us on the outside.) So how about if the law was that if you wanted to ride helmet-free, you had to get a special tag on your license plate. If the police see you riding helmet-free without the designated tag, you are given a ticket and forced to get the special tag. Then the people who ride without helmets can be separated from those who do, and the insurance companies can charge them accordingly. I predict if the above were enacted, very few people would want to take the hit on their pocketbook and would instead choose to wear a helmet. Hits to the pocketbook are much scarier to some people than hits to the head. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/56 "2011-07-06T15:17:04Z")
I must admit that I snickered when I read this. The Universe is a cold-hearted bitch most of the time, but every rare once in a while, she cuts loose with a classic practical joke. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/57 "2011-07-06T15:34:23Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > I’m purchasing a bicycle and will never ride without a helmet (I do know lots of people who do though and it sucks). I was eating dinner with my friends yesterday (well technically 2 days ago as it’s after midnight) at an outdoor restaurant and we witnessed a cab totally t-bone a cyclist in the intersection. The dude was not wearing a helmet and obviously had a a nasty head injury- he was conscious and aware of what had happened so hopefully he’ll be relatively all right, but presumably he would have been feeling much better had he been wearing a helmet. [A couple weeks a go, a DC-area bicyclist died after colliding with a pedestrian. The cyclist was not wearing a helmet.](http://wusa9.com/news/article/156554/158/DC-Bicyclist-Dies-After-Colliding-With-Pedestrian-Bicyclist-Was-Not-Wearing-Helmet) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/58 "2011-07-06T17:12:36Z")
Why is it irony? It’s straight forward cause and effect, totally predictable. Now maybe if there was a counter-protest where a guy was riding with a helmet to promote helmet usage and they hit each other and the guy with the helmet died and the guy without the helmet was fine, maybe that’d be irony. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/59 "2011-07-06T17:14:32Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [A couple weeks a go, a DC-area bicyclist died after colliding with a pedestrian. The cyclist was not wearing a helmet.](http://wusa9.com/news/article/156554/158/DC-Bicyclist-Dies-After-Colliding-With-Pedestrian-Bicyclist-Was-Not-Wearing-Helmet) Damn, I was picturing the pedestrian as some big dude built like a brick wall, but it was a 14 year-old girl! ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729/60 "2011-07-06T19:43:08Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Why is it irony? It’s straight forward cause and effect, totally predictable. Now maybe if there was a counter-protest where a guy was riding with a helmet to promote helmet usage and they hit each other and the guy with the helmet died and the guy without the helmet was fine, maybe that’d be irony. Thank you. Irregardless Nucular Alanis Morissette definitions of irony [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-dies-in-motorcycle-accident-while-protesting-helmet-law/587729.md?page=4)