# Man Explodes After Being Forced to Rob Bank, Murderer Sought **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919 "2003-09-01T04:40:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/81 "2003-09-02T09:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **Well, he _did_ dial 911 and the cops they responded. Perhaps it’s different in PA, but out here the cops have an obligation to work a guy over when he calls for medical attention.** I haven’t seen anything about the cops responding, only that he called 911 and then refused aid. No mention of why he called, response, or anything like that. Cite for the cops responding? Or any of what was talked about in the 911 call? > [@](#): > > **No dead cops for me. I am unhappy they made him sit for at least 15 minutes, at most 30-40, before he went off like an old firecracker. Poo.** “Unhappy” doesn’t mean the cops are at fault. Hell, I’m “unhappy” the guy died at all. However, seeing as he had an (extremely dangerous) explosive device on him that likely nobody there had any knowledge to deal with, I don’t see how it particularly matters how long was on the timer. Would you be more happy with the cops if he blew up after only 10 minutes? If he blew up when they were pulling him from the car? What were they supposed to do differently? > [@](#): > > **SWAT has bomb training. I am trying to find out if Erie’s got a dedicated bomb squad, but it’s slow-going.** SWAT training can vary a good deal, but the basic requirements (To my knowledge) are tactical capability, not specialized training such as disarming explosives. In any case, SWAT teams in smaller towns are often drawn from the overall officer pool, not a 24/7 ready-to-go unit like LA or NY. They probably wouldn’t get on-scene any faster than the bomb squad. > [@](#): > > \*\*Re the bomb blanket/helmet/shield: I saw the footage. They just stood there and watched him pop. It could’ve been a whole lot worse with the purported “Colombian bomb technology” we know about and have seen in action. \*\* First, what does that have to do with bomb blanket/helmet/shield? Second, what is this “Colombian bomb technology” uber-bomb stuff you’re talking about? And third, what the HELL do you expect the police to do about the guy when they have NO explosives training and NO explosives equipment? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/82 "2003-09-02T10:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > And **Monty** , the guy in the story got all the way out to the sticks to deliver a pizza – that much is somewhat established – in 10-15 minutes, got back to the bank and robbed it, all in the space of the _Seinfeld_ “Mulva” episode. I think the bomb squad, FBI, whatever, could’ve gotten there within 40 minutes? As has already been pointed out several times in this thread, as well as in the original article, the 40 minutes was from the **time he entered the bank**. This has by now been made so plain that I can only conclude that you are deliberately ignoring it. Personally, I do not think 40 minutes is very long when it includes [list=1][li] Entering the bank[/li][li] Passing the note to the teller[/li][li] The (lengthy, remember) note being read and understood[/li][li] Money changing hands[/li][li] Leaving the bank, driving off[/li][li] Being pulled over[/li][li] Explaining the bomb to the police[/li][li] Calling the bomb squad[/li][li] Bomb squad arrival time.[/list=1][/li]You, in your rush to condemn the police, mysteriously assume that the first 7 stages take no time whatsoever. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/83 "2003-09-02T10:51:55Z")
Near as I can tell from the _actual_ data we have, the responding officers did precisely what they were supposed to do. Bank is robbed, vehicle description is given. Cops find car, suspect indicates presence of bomb, claims he was forced to rob bank by man who placed bomb on him. Cops do what they can- handcuff suspect, clear the area. The officers were looking at a real simple binary problem set: 1. Bomb is fake. Thus waiting, etc, causes no foul. 2. Bomb is real. Assuming (2), which the officers MUST do, they have only two more choices: A) Secure suspect so that he cannot either escape (thus endangering innocents if the bomb goes off) nor can he trigger the bomb himself (assuming he’s part of the conspiracy, so to speak) and clear the area, since the officers have no bomb-disarming training whatsoever, and considering the fact it’s a _bank robber wearing a bomb_, the possibility that said bomb is either booby-trapped to detonate given any attempt to remove it, or can be command-detonated by the bomber. Or B) Attempt to remove it. Again, given that this is not simply an errant blasting cap that some kid finds in the woods, but rather an overtly malicious weapon, the possibility it is boobytrapped or capable of remote detonation is not only plausible, but would be _expected_. What if the bomber was watching, and figured, okay, the carrier got nabbed, now I’ll wait until the most other people are nearby (officers or bomb-squad techs) then_then_ set it off. Thus, add those all up and you have three possible outcomes: 1- Bomb is fake. No foul. 2- Bomb is real, and if detonates, kills carrier only. 3- Bomb is real, and detonates upon attempted removal, killing **both** carrier _and_ officer attempting removal. That the point of detonation, they did not know- and likely still don’t know- if the pizza guy was in fact an innocent victim, a willing part of an organized, multi-person plot, or a single criminal acting alone. Thus, the safest option for the police officers was to secure the suspect, and clear the area. Just exactly like they did. The bomb squad techs could then move in, hopefully determine the bomb’s authenticity and/or triggering mechanism, and try to remove it. Erie is not that large a place, and I would bet money they have a team of people that are bomb-disposal trained, but only “on call” like a volunteer fire department. Meaning they all had to come to the headquarters, or wherever the trucks and BD gear and equipment are stored, suit up, and then head out to the location of the bomb. I live it a little town a fraction the size of Erie, and it still takes ten to fifteen minutes to cross town- I see no fault in the scattered techs having to drop whatever they were doing, drive twenty minutes to the HQ, suit up, get the trucks and equipment, then drive another twenty minutes to get to the scene. Is that so impossible to imagine? As for having some brave cop jump in and try to disarm it, hell, just watching a couple of movies tells you that’s a piss-poor idea. The bomb was strapped to his chest? Okay, what if there’s a pressure switch on the back- lift the bomb away from his chest, it goes off. What if there’s a wire running through the strap, or buried under the tape? Cut the strap, bomb goes off. How about he’s got a strap around his neck and it’s hanging on his chest? Maybe it has a mercury switch, and if it’s tilted- as if it’s being lifted over the kid’s head- the bomb goes off. What if the bomber is watching from a distance, and has a remote control- he could wait 'til there’s two or three cops around the victim, and THEN detonate it. You starting to see a trend here? If it’s fake, you got nothing to worry about, and there’s no harm in waiting. But if it’s real, the odds are greatly stacked against you, since the thing may very well have been _designed to try and kill you when you try to take it off_. You willing to risk your life, against odds of maybe 85% or better of being killed, to save a kid who may or may not be a bank robber? ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/84 "2003-09-02T11:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > \*\* > A) Secure suspect so that he cannot either escape (thus endangering innocents if the bomb goes off) nor can he trigger the bomb himself (assuming he’s part of the conspiracy, so to speak) and clear the area, since the officers have no bomb-disarming training whatsoever, and considering the fact it’s a _bank robber wearing a bomb_, the possibility that said bomb is either booby-trapped to detonate given any attempt to remove it, or can be command-detonated by the bomber. > > Or B) Attempt to remove it. Again, given that this is not simply an errant blasting cap that some kid finds in the woods, but rather an overtly malicious weapon, the possibility it is boobytrapped or capable of remote detonation is not only plausible, but would be _expected_. What if the bomber was watching, and figured, okay, the carrier got nabbed, now I’ll wait until the most other people are nearby (officers or bomb-squad techs) then_then_ set it off. > \*\* C) In hindsight, I think I’d feel better about this if the poor guy hadn’t been cuffed during his ordeal. The bomb was gonna go off anyway, why not let him–in his last moments–at least have a go at removing it? It would have been a hail mary, at best, but it would have been _something_. I realize that the exact time constraints were unknown, and that they were hoping professionals would arrive, but it still seems cruel to let someone virtually tick down his last seconds restrained and helpless. Someone mentioned seeing the actual footage. Was there anyone paying any attention/speaking to him at the end? Or were they just keeping back and avoiding him completely while they waited? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/85 "2003-09-02T12:01:23Z")
Doc summed up my position nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/86 "2003-09-02T12:14:11Z")
[FBI backs cops in bomb kill](http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/114083p-102870c.html) > [@](#): > > Pennsylvania State Police acted appropriately when they ignored the frantic pleas of a suspected bank robber killed by a bomb strapped to his chest, an FBI agent said yesterday. > > Despite criticism that cops should have done more to help Brian Wells as he sat handcuffed on the street last week, FBI Special Agent Kenneth McCabe said cops did “everything perfectly.” > > \ > > McCabe said the police “protected innocent lives” by pulling away and waiting for the bomb squad. > > “The police and agents are not trained to go and defuse a bomb. It’s not like TV shows, where we go up and try to guess, ‘Do we cut the red wire or the green wire?’ It’s too dangerous,” he told CNN yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/87 "2003-09-02T12:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by belladonna \* > In hindsight, I think I’d feel better about this if the poor guy hadn’t been cuffed during his ordeal. The bomb was gonna go off anyway, why not let him–in his last moments–at least have a go at removing it? In my view, the cops couldn’t assume that he wasn’t malicious; if he was, leaving his hands free could have given him the chance to throw the bomb towards somewhere it could do real damage. In hindsight it appears that he was indeed telling the truth, but not only did the police not have the benefit of hindsight, they would have been negligent to make any assumption that would have put more people in danger. I know exactly what you mean about doing _something_, however small, making one “feel better” though. The sense of being powerless to help isn’t a pleasant one. It’s things like this that increase my respect for the police - not necessarily directly because of their actions, but because they were faced with some very tough choices, with no likely pleasant outcome. They appear to have acted thoughtfully and in the interests of saving as many lives as possible, and yet will still take flak from many. That can’t be easy at all. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/88 "2003-09-02T12:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I haven’t seen anything about the cops responding, only that he called 911 and then refused aid. No mention of why he called, response, or anything like that. Cite for the cops responding? Or any of what was talked about in the 911 call? You’re confusing two different events. The first was the pizza-delivery guy/bank robber/bomb victim. A short while later one of the bank employees got sick or something and died quietly at home, cause as yet unknown. Probably a coincidence, but the cops properly investigated it. ---
**Author:** ![papergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/aca169/32.png) [@papergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/papergirl)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/89 "2003-09-02T13:18:43Z")
Just to muddy the waters a bit more, my ex is a paramedic on the CRT and the SWAT teams here, and I expect it would take them a minimum of 30-40 minutes to arrive on a scene. Maybe in larger cities the SWAT and bomb squad guys work actual shifts in a crewhouse where they can take calls and be on the road in a heartbeat, but in my medium-sized city (well, maybe we’re a small city, I’m not sure), they’re off the clock with beepers on their belts. What a sad situation for everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/90 "2003-09-02T13:46:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*Well, he _did_ dial 911 and the cops they responded. Perhaps it’s different in PA, but out here the cops have an obligation to work a guy over when he calls for medical attention. > \*\* I know it’s inconvenient when facts get in the way of your world view, but here we go From [http://www.pittsburghfirst.com/localnews/20030901eriestoryreg4p4.asp](http://www.pittsburghfirst.com/localnews/20030901eriestoryreg4p4.asp) , but it’s an AP story > [@](#): > > Early yesterday, police received a call asking for medical assistance at the home where Pinetti lived with his parents, but the man refused medical assistance, Zaleski said. He refused medical attention for reasons unknown. The police did exactly the right thing. What else could they have done? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/91 "2003-09-02T13:51:42Z")
Of course the other side of the coin would be the _same_ people bitching about the stupid cops who let the guy kill himself. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/92 "2003-09-02T13:58:34Z")
I meant “stupid cops”, but you should know that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/93 "2003-09-02T14:06:46Z")
smiling bandit: Mr. B’s confusing THREE different things: the two you mentioned and his obvious dislike of police. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/94 "2003-09-02T14:12:35Z")
Just a hint, **Mr. B** : when you find yourself in a hole, _ **STOP DIGGING!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/95 "2003-09-02T14:13:16Z")
**Mr. B** , you’re kinda standing all alone on this one. Perhaps you should reconsider. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/96 "2003-09-02T14:29:23Z")
Its a sad sitiuation. I hope the person who built and/or installed the bomb gets caught. Its never a good day when the cops tell the coroner not to bring a body bag, but to bring a ‘body bucket’. Also, comments on another board seem to indicate that when the footage was broadcast in Europe, it was un-cut. They got to see the last words, the explosion, and bystanders comments picked up by the microphone as the bits & pieces landed. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/97 "2003-09-02T14:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\ ***Mr. B** , you’re kinda standing all alone on this one. Perhaps you should reconsider. \*\* I think has has. Looks like he took a page out of **Reeder’s** book and bailed the thread. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![doctordoowop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@doctordoowop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doctordoowop)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/98 "2003-09-02T14:35:00Z")
As I said-he was suicidal-rather be dead than caught. Then as often happens, he changed his mind. No mystery to me. i have seen many bank robbers in custody who allege bombs, there is no reason to have a real one unless the robber is suicidal. If he was coerced into it, why not go directly to the police? Oh, forgot, I’ve yet to meet a bright pizza man. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/99 "2003-09-02T14:43:26Z")
doctor: May I recommend you change your user name? Given your posting just above, it should really be doctordoofus. There are so many things none of us knows about the event. Did the person with the bomb do it on his own? Was he forced into it? If forced into it, was he doing so under the duress of a threat to his family? Also, there are plenty of bright pizza delivery folks. That job seems to be a popular one with the college students in this town. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/100 "2003-09-02T14:44:40Z")
I wonder why they show it uncut in Europe, but not here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919.md?page=6)