# Man Explodes After Being Forced to Rob Bank, Murderer Sought **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919 "2003-09-01T04:40:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/161 "2003-09-03T01:59:19Z")
Wow. We don’t even know the whole freaking story yet!! I just can’t imagine faulting the police (who had called the bomb squad) - hell, walk in a policeman’s shoes nowdays in the U.S. and think about how you’d react in the same situation. It’s a horrible tragedy, no doubt, if in fact he was innocent… And, from what I heard last, an employee of a local radio or TV station called into the authorities and said that the collar looks like a piece of equipment from a radio/TV transmitter tower. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/162 "2003-09-03T02:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I think this whole readiness idea under the PATRIOT (I and II) Act is just plain hogwash, but the government would have you believe it’s possible. Everyone roundly disputed my ideas of outfitting cop cars for contingencies, but no one claimed to actually be doing anything about these preposterous ideas. Maybe this PATRIOT stuff will die off, right? You don’t like the PATRIOT ACT. That’s a legitimate opinion. You think the government is not prepared. That’s legitimate. But making stuff up is not. You have made a number of statements, few – if any – of which you supported and several of which were soundly rebutted. And many that seem to be outright fabrications. So now you say your point is that you don’t like the PATRIOT ACT and are concerned that nobody’s doing anything. Well, if fabricating facts and making bogus arguments about the Erie, PA police department constitutes “doing something” then you’re right – we’re not doing anything. Don’t try to wrap yourself in the cloak of civil liberties. You have no idea what any of the posters in this thread thinks about the PATRIOT ACT or the War on Terrorism. We have objected to your fabrications and specious arguments. Don’t try to play this off as your plea for civil liberties to a group who doesn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/163 "2003-09-03T02:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\ ***Doc** and **Tuckerfan** , would it not follow that the bomb-maker likely tried this gadget out before he used it on a man? \*\* It all depends upon how he had the thing wired up, and he really _wouldn’t_ need to do a “live fire” test, as it were. He could just wire the thing up to a light instead of a bomb to test it. If the light goes off, then he knows it works.\*\* > [@](#): > > If I were John Law, I’d be snooping around in the woods to try and find any recently departed dogs. Also, regarding the action of the explosive charge, is it possible this was intended as a decapitation device?\*\* I haven’t seen the video, so I’ve no idea of what effect it had on the victim. However, it seems to me, that if you wanted to do it as a decapitation device, it’d make more sense to pack the thing with C-4 and then put a cover over it, so the victim couldn’t pick the explosive out. \*\* > [@](#): > > I agree, likely a very small payout for the effort. I’m getting a weird _Seven_-type vibe here. **What’s in the fuckin’ box!?** \*\* Of course, we _don’t_ who is responsible for the device as of yet. It may have been the victim, it may have been someone who saw it in a movie and thought it was a good idea, or it may be a serial killer out for kicks. Until the police figure it out, or this particular MO is used again, we won’t know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/164 "2003-09-03T02:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > We have objected to your fabrications and specious arguments. You speak for the Hive? \ And I don’t believe I fabricated anything in my posts. I simply cannot find the link for the LAPD 911 policy and besides, I didn’t take time to answer your posts to your satisfaction. I’m sorry for that. It wasn’t personal. ---
**Author:** ![vandal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/858c86/32.png) [@vandal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vandal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/165 "2003-09-03T02:23:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **Doc and Tuckerfan, would it not follow that the bomb-maker likely tried this gadget out before he used it on a man? If I were John Law, I’d be snooping around in the woods to try and find any recently departed dogs. Also, regarding the action of the explosive charge, is it possible this was intended as a decapitation device?** Interesting points you bring up, **Mr. B**. But, even if some dead dogs are in fact found, what does that prove? That our culprit is smart enough to test his devices first? Okay, that’s nice, but how does that further the investigation? Moreover, does the device even need to be tested on a live animal at all? I mean, can’t it just be detonated by itself? As long as it goes off, it must work, right? The fact that it is strapped to something shouldn’t make a difference. And, regarding the decapitation – again, where are you going with this? That the cops start focusing their attention to any bank robbers/murderers at large with a proclivity to decapitation? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/166 "2003-09-03T02:31:02Z")
**vandal** , from a strictly forensic standpoint, I’m currently looking around via various sources for clues. Find a dead animal, possibly burned and/or decapitated and you might just discover a shiny new lead. Just musing. I think there’s some validity to the live animal test: I suspect the bomber doesn’t exactly want testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/167 "2003-09-03T02:50:22Z")
As an animal lover, I’m distraught at the concept of testing upon dogs… Eh, never f–king mind. Hell, folks - what’s wrong with waiting for further data before getting into a heated debate? I’m just saying. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/168 "2003-09-03T03:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **That being said, I also did my bid in the United States Marine Corps (the Prequel) and found myself singing right along in cadence with the “raghead this” and “camel jockey that.” Just like the Marines, cops shops take the man right out of the job and often get him to do some pretty uncharacteristic things.** First you rag on the Police, and now the Marines. You know, accusing the USMC of what appears to be institutional racism is a pretty serious charge. Do you have any evidence, other than your own ramblings? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/169 "2003-09-03T03:45:14Z")
Careful, Junior. I am a Marine. I can tell you what we did. We didn’t write down our jodies, the Gunny just belted 'em out during PT. Watch _Full Metal Jacket_ some time. Just like that, only gearing up for Riyadh. Think about Vietnam and let a few of the old (at the time prevalent and accepted) words pop into your head. It’s disgusting, but it’s not “institutional racism” – my beloved Corps would never do such a thing – it’s just a fact that it’s easier to kill a guy when he’s immediately loathed on sight. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/170 "2003-09-03T03:53:18Z")
I see, junior, you don’t have any evidence. Much like you don’t have any evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the police in this case. The simplest answer is usually correct, IMHO. If you were indeed “singing righting along”, maybe you are (or were) bigoted? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/171 "2003-09-03T03:54:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vandal \* > **And, regarding the decapitation – again, where are you going with this?** > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **vandal, from a strictly forensic standpoint, I’m currently looking around via various sources for clues.** [Rutger Hauer movies are not clues](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0103239/). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/172 "2003-09-03T04:02:19Z")
Now _that’s_ really funny. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/173 "2003-09-03T04:12:01Z")
If you were a Marine any time within the last 24 years, Mr. B, then your shouting of racist epithets was in violation of DoD policy. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/174 "2003-09-03T04:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _by milroyj_ > If you were indeed “singing righting along”, maybe you are (or were) bigoted? YAHHHHWWN. _You_ through being deceptive? What evidence of wrongdoing do I need to produce? Go back and read the posts, please. It’s my opinion – we still can have opinions, right? > [@](#): > > _by Monty_ > If you were a Marine any time within the last 24 years, Mr. B, then your shouting of racist epithets was in violation of DoD policy. Yes, and so were fistfights, hazing and swearing, but they still happened. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/175 "2003-09-03T04:25:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > **_You_ through being deceptive?** What part of my post was deceptive? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/176 "2003-09-03T04:32:19Z")
In my post, I was speaking of uncharacteristic behavior. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/177 "2003-09-03T04:33:34Z")
Mr. Wells was 46 years old. He has been described by co-workers and neighbors as having a “child-like” demeanor. While they could simply have meant that he was an innocent, happy-go-lucky type, there is a strong implication that he was of a less-than-average intellectual ability. If he was frightened and single-mindedly set on simple survival, and/or convinced that he was being watched, he probably wouldn’t have gone to police first or deviated in any way from the bomber’s instructions. The horror that he must have been experiencing is beyond my imagination. But the onus here is on the one who made the bomb, not on the police. Lay blame at the one who set this awful drama in motion, not the ones who did their damndest to stop it. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mr. B_ > **It’s not about consent, it’s about the 911 call. I was apparently under the misapprehension that Pinetta called 911 himself, not that the ambulance just happened by his house… Thanks for playing, eh?** There was no “false report” to 911. Mr. Pinetti (or someone at his home) called 911 and said that he wasn’t feeling well. When the paramedics arrived, they looked at him, but he decided that he wasn’t feeling poorly enough to go to the hospital. They probably argued with him a little, then took him at his word and left, probably after he signed a waiver. He has that right. No one could force him to go to the hospital. It happens **every day**. Is it a shame that Mr. Pinetti died? Absolutely. But for all we know, he was a troubled young man who overdosed after emotional difficulties were heightened because of the death of his co-worker. We don’t know that Pinetti’s death is in any way an indication that he was involved in the bank robbery, the bombing or the involvement of Mr. Wells in the scheme. We simply do not have any facts to support a presumption that this is something more than a sad young man taking too many drugs. And there is no reason why any 911 operator or dispatcher or the paramedics should have known that Mr. Pinetti had any connection to Mr. Wells whatsoever. It’s just terribly sad, not a sign of some vast police conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/178 "2003-09-03T07:33:31Z")
Couple of things. 1. There is no way the cops pulled him over 3 minutes after he entered the bank. There is no way he walks into the bank, gives the teller the note, gets the money, gets back out to his car, drives out of the parking lot, then gets pulled over, all in 180 seconds. Had to have taken a bit more time… 2. Where is the bomb squad in relation to where the suspect was pulled over? I know I can’t get across town, even with no traffic in the dead of night, in 20 minutes. I doubt Erie, PA has more than 1 bomb squad. 3. If **Mr. B** thinks I’m having a medical emergency and calls 911 on my behalf, I can still refuse medical treatment and order them away. And even here in Los Angeles county, they ain’t taking **Mr. B** to jail, or even citing him, for making the call unless they have reason to believe that **Mr. B** was fucking with them in some way. Am I wrong about any of this? ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/179 "2003-09-03T07:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > **Doc, presumably you’re the same fellow who posts over at _Home Shop Machinist_’s board, with that moniker? I think you’ll agree with me in thinking that’s most likely some kind of off-the-shelf piece of hardware that’s been modified for this nefarious purpose. I’m betting that it’s some kind of quick grab pipe/tubing clamp that’s been worked over, though, come to think of it, it looks _very_ similar to the kinds of clamps one sees holding missiles in their launcher.** -That’s me all right. You know, I never made the connection between the _Tucker_ user names… 😃 It does definitely look commercial- there’s too much work there for a totally hand-made item. I have no idea what kind of clamp holds a missile in place, but to me, that thing looks vaguely like one type of quick-release fire-extinguisher mount I once saw. Only vaguely though. The box definitely looks worked-over, though. Wish I could see more of it- just out of curiosity, I doubt I could supply any info the FBI needs. > [@](#): > > \*\*If it _is_ entirely scratch built, then the guy who did it, spent a good deal of time working on it. Way too much time, IMHO, for the small payout he would have gotten. \*\* Agreed. That’s major risk, lots of time, etc, for a small gain. Unless this is leading up to something, kind of like the Beltway shooters, who were trying to raise a panic until they could make some demands, and have those demands taken seriously. But why rob a bank? How was the Pizza guy supposed to get the money back to the bomber? It almost sounds like the bomber did it for fun, a “just 'cause he could” thing… > [@](#): > > **would it not follow that the bomb-maker likely tried this gadget out before he used it on a man?** Not necessarily: as noted, there was absolutely no reason to test the thing with live explosives. None whatsoever. It appears to be a lock enclosed by a box, with some kind of circuit- that looks like wires and a green breadboard in the pic of the collar- that was probably some kind of simple timer and/or anti-tamper device. Testing the lock is simple, a mechanical exercise. Testing the circuit even easier- arm it, wait the preprogrammed time, see if it lights a bulb (sends a voltage pulse to a blasting cap) or pegs the needle on an ohmmeter, or maybe he just had a spare blasting cap, or even an Estes model rocket igniter on it. Did it fire? Then it works- now load the explosive (I wonder what it was, improvised? C4 or Dynamite would have destroyed the clamp) and call for a pizza. No need to hunt down a dog, or leave other forensic evidence of prior testing, or arouse suscpicion from having prior loud noises in the area, etc. I hate to say it, but this case is morbidly fascinating- it’s unique (at least outside of works of fiction) and leaves lots of questions unanswered: who did it? Did they know their payoff was going to be small? Did he know the carrier was going to be caught? How did he plan to get the money? Is he going to try again? Is there some Grand Plan here, or is he just a loner who’s watched too many bad Rutger Hauer movies? (Like there’s actually a _good_ one.) Maybe the pizza guy did it to himself- figured the bomb squad would show up in time, defuse the simple mechanism, and he could wait 'til the heat died down a bit and sell the book and TV rights. (Far fetched, yes, but not wholly outside the realm of possibility.) It’ll be interesting to see how this develops. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919/180 "2003-09-03T08:18:36Z")
From reading the available accounts by the pizza guy’s neighbors & co-workers, I think there is a very small likelihood that he willingly robbed the bank or committed suicide. He was murdered. I feel I do not know enough facts to either praise or criticize “the authorities” in this matter. (“The authorities” meaning not only the cops on the scene, but also the people responsible for coordinating emergency services in the area.) My praise or criticism would depend on knowing several things, like the availability of a bomb disposal team in the area, the time elapsed before police summoned them, the time they took to get there – things like that. The news articles aren’t really specific on these points. I must admit, when I first heard about what happened, I was horrified and outraged, and much of that was against the cops: “f’n cold-hearted cowards with badges, I hope they hear this guy’s pleas forever in their dreams!!!” But then, it turned they had called the bomb squad, and, you know, it’s hard to say what else they could have done. Could they have done more? (See above paragraph.) Well, here’s one thing they definitely could have done: they could have talked to and consoled the guy, or at least tried to explain how they were doing everything they could, and that might have eased his final moments slightly. Did they? The victim’s anguish was probably exacerbated by this thought: “I’M GOING TO DIE AND NO ONE CARES.” Would it have been too much to ask for the officers on the scene to offer him a few kind words? Even a few kind lies, like “you’ll be OK”? You know, we often joke about Latin American law enforcement, but here’s food for thought: last year, a female dairy farmer in Colombia had a “necklace bomb” locked on her by extortionists who demanded money. The device was apparently very complex, with mechanical, electronic and chemical components. A Colombian police officer was working on it all the way until the time it exploded, decapitating the woman and blowing the officer’s hands off. The officer died of his wounds, and the incident, which conveniently happened just before a Congressional debate on military aid to Colombia, was blamed on leftist guerrillas (who denied involvement).The aid was approved. We pay police officers to risk their lives for civilians. This Colombian officer did. The Colombian “necklace bombing” was the first thing I thought of when I saw this on the news: “Gawd… it’s come HERE!!!” Considering the multi-page holdup note which may have been a manifesto or a rant, and considering the relatively small monetary payoff the bomber would have gotten for all his elaborate efforts, and considering the theatricality of the crime and, again, the parallels to Colombia, I think it is highly probable that this crime was politically motivated. Or, at least, perpetrated by a crank with political-sounding grievances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-explodes-after-being-forced-to-rob-bank-murderer-sought/198919.md?page=10)