# Man found guilty after 27 years; justice and pain reperations are served. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 29, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150 "2002-08-29T19:31:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/1 "2002-08-29T19:31:26Z")
Snippets from today’s [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/29/nyregion/29CND_SKAK.html) (you’ve got to register to read it I think). > [@](#): > > In one of the more poignant moments on Wednesday, Mrs. Moxley read a statement to the judge recounting the things she would never know about her daughter, who was 15 when she was killed. Mrs. Moxley said she often imagined her daughter all grown up, with a college degree, a career and a family. > > “I have spent almost 27 years of hell and anguish trying to live what some would think of as a normal life, but stressed to the limit trying to find truth and justice,” said Mrs. Moxley, who wore a gold pin shaped like the scales of justice on her lapel… I don’t even know what to say. Sometimes the “justice” system in this country makes no sense at all. So the victim’s family has been suffering mental anguish for 27 years. So what? If they had caught him 15 years ago should he have gotten a lighter sentence, since the family would have only suffered half the grief? Or maybe there should be a limit on grief; say 10 years of grief, and depending on the deepness of the grief and heinousness of the crime the accused should get between 1-4 years for each year of grief for each person suffering from the time of the crime to the time of the perpetrator’s conviction. > [@](#): > > “Michael Skakel sentenced us to life without Martha. I think he should be responsible for his actions, and so it is only fair that he serve a similar sentence.” Yes, eye for an eye and all that. > [@](#): > > …trial brought out many unsavory details about his life — including drinking, drug use and his claim that he had masturbated in a tree while trying to peep into Miss Moxley’s bedroom on the night of the murder… > Carol Beck, a longtime friend, called him a “remarkable parent” to his son and said that “the other victim in this case is a little boy who absolutely adores him.” > > Another woman described how Mr. Skakel went out of his way to help her alcoholic brother. “I truly believe that without Michael’s help my brother would not be here today,” said Shannon Hayden, while crying. “I came here today so that you would know that Michael Skakel used these last 25 years well.”… And this man’s character has exactly _what_ to do with his guilt or punishment? Oh, he lived his last 25 years well? In _that_ case he should be given a medal for being such a good person. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Mr. Moxley, who was 17 when his sister was murdered, told the judge he “always will feel a hollowness.” He described watching his mother crying, and being unable to comfort her because he had mentally shut down. He said that later, he could never talk about Martha with his father because it was too painful. > > After the hearing, Mr. Moxley said he was not moved by Mr. Skakel’s tears. > > “That’s theater,” he said. “I’m sure they’re tears of fear about spending the rest of his life in jail.” So is this what our criminal justice system is all about? It sounds more like a cheesey movie than an actual trial (yes, I am taking it with a grain of salt, considering it’s a news report and not a trial transcript). What do people want, and what are we trying to do? Are we satisfying the victims, (and the families’ of victims) need for vengance? Need for closure? Are we punishing a crime? Are we basing judgment on the character of a person as opposed to actual evidence? It’s very frustrating and scarry how many crimes these days (at least the ones in the news) seem to be prosecuted based on emotions and how sad the victims are (maybe they should learn to be more resiliant. 27 years and you’re still a wreck? That sounds like your problem more than the killer’s) as opposed to evidence and fact. That’s all. Kind of weak, but I just read the article and felt like it was a TV drama as opposed to something real. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/2 "2002-08-29T19:54:55Z")
I wasn’t going to register to read the article, so I’ll just base my comments on the OP. Just what pisses you off here? The fact that the family of Martha has mourned her death for years. That their grief was introduced during (what I presume is) the penalty phase of the trial? That’s common. Are you ticked that Skakel’s lawyer introduced supporting character evidence during (again, I’m presuming this is) the penalty phase? That, too, is common. It seems, and you pretty much admit this, that you’re confusing the emotional tone of the article with that of the trial. Since this is a murder trial, emotions are bound to run rampant. I’m all for a good rant, I’m just not sure what the rant is in this case. Again, I admit I didn’t read the article to which you linked, so you can take my comments with the proverbial grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/3 "2002-08-29T20:10:19Z")
Yeah, I know this is kind of vague, so I’ll try to make some specific points: 1. I don’t see what subsequent grief has at all to do with this guy’s punishment. If they convicted him at the time of the murder, they would have suffered only months of grief; if they convicted him twenty years from now it’d be 47 years of grief. So what? I don’t see why his punishment should at all be related to the duration of time (and therefore the net “amount” of grief suffered) between crime and punishment. 2. The second part of this is just that it so often feels like the justice system is confused about its purpose and function. Is it a tool for retribution and vengance? Is it a tool for justice? Is it a tool for objective punishment? Is it a tool for reform and reassimilation? The lawyer for the defendant clearly would like it to be the last option. After all, he’s lived a wonderful life, is a good man and father, and has helped friends through dificult times. The prosecution would like it to be #1 and 2, giving to the convicted what he inflicted on the victim family (like for like), and making him pay for their suffering. It’s vagaries like this that make it hard to really trust what the justice system is going to do. Depending on the flavor du jour of our courts, someone might be going to jail to learn a lesson and re-enter society, or to suffer for the suffering he or she caused. Hope that clarifies a little about what this rant is about. Oh, and for those of you who can’t read the article, Mr. Skakel, 41, was just convicted of bludgeoning a friend and neighbor, 15, to death in 1975. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/4 "2002-08-29T21:16:23Z")
[CNN article](http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/08/29/skakel.sentencing/index.html) He says he didn’t do it but the jury found him guilty and he got 20 years to life. I think the fact that he was 15 at the time and the fact that it was 27 years ago and he has lead a life with no crimes should be some serious mitigating factors. If I was convinced he did it I’d probably give him 10 years. Also I question the value to society of sending a man who is and has been a positive contributor to society to jail where he will be costing society. Maybe it would be better if a percentage of his income was taken from him for the rest of his life. Even if it was 95 %. It seems better than sending him to jail. Another thing that comes to my mind and I had never thought of is what would happen if I were the judge and the jury finds a man guilty and I am convinced of his inocence. How could I sentence him? I guess I’d have to call a mistrial. Has this ever happened? ---
**Author:** ![\_Uigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/e9a140/32.png) [@\_Uigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Uigi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/5 "2002-08-30T00:58:42Z")
A Kennedy serving time?! Well, 'bout time. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/6 "2002-08-30T08:17:00Z")
I haven’t seen any of the evidence, so I don’t know… But if the guy did it, he should do prison time. I fail to see how the ‘fact’ that he committed no other crimes would mitigate the ‘fact’ that he beat a teenager to death with a golf club. {I don 't know if either are facts} The fact that he was 15 at the time does seem like a mitigating factor. There may still be an appeal about this. He should still have to do _some_ time in prison. > [@](#): > > Another thing that comes to my mind and I had never thought of is what would happen if I were the judge and the jury finds a man guilty and I am convinced of his inocence. How could I sentence him? If I’m not mistaken, a judge _can_ set aside a jury verdict for a number of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/7 "2002-08-30T10:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eonwe \* > \*\*and how sad the victims are (maybe they should learn to be more resiliant. 27 years and you’re still a wreck? That sounds like your problem more than the killer’s) as opposed to evidence and fact. > > \*\* This sentiment bothered me a little- it’s like you put a time limit on losing a child. You lose a kid to _anything_ and you’re a wreck for the rest of your life, but if you lose a kid because some fuckwit decided he’d get a little slaphappy with the blunt instruments at the expense of her future marrage and children and travel and career and all the things she should be doing…I’m impressed that Dorthy Moxley didn’t kill Skakel himself. Now _that’s_ real resiiliance. **’Uigi** , you know he’s not a Kennedy, right? ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/8 "2002-08-30T19:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Also I question the value to society of sending a man who is and has been a positive contributor to society to jail where he will be costing society. Maybe it would be better if a percentage of his income was taken from him for the rest of his life. Even if it was 95 %. It seems better than sending him to jail. He has to pay his price to society. Are you saying that if someone commits a crime, escapes prosecution and lives a productive life that they should get away with serving jail time? That encourages people to flee. Why didn’t Skakel just drive her across the bridge like his uncle? He didn’t even lose his driver’s license. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/9 "2002-08-30T20:39:22Z")
There are statutes of limitations for crimes because society recognises that there is not much point in punishing people or crimes which happened long time ago. The time limit is a sliding scale depending on the severity of the crime but in sme jurisdictions even murder will expire. I think that the crime was committed at such a young age and that such long time has gone by are very mitigating circumstances. Still, let us assume he must be punished. Prison is not the only punishment available. Prison makes sense for violent criminals who are a threat of commiting more criminal acts. But this is not the case as he has led a productive life for 27 years. Putting him in prison costs the taxpayer a lot and does nothing for him except punish him. It does not take a violent criminal out of circulation. Why not sentence him to keep on working at what he is doing but confiscate most of his income? That would be plenty punishment for him and much better for the state who gains money instead of losing it. And hi place in prison could be taken by a violent criminal. My point is that prison is not the only punishment available and there are others which may be more suited to the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/10 "2002-08-30T21:22:18Z")
> [@](#): > > So the victim’s family has been suffering mental anguish for 27 years. So what? Perhaps you could petition Mrs. Moxley to keep quiet on account that her despair is pissing you off… > [@](#): > > Or maybe there should be a limit on grief; say 10 years of grief… I’m sure the Moxleys wish such a thing were possible. > [@](#): > > …and depending on the (depth) of the grief and heinousness of the crime the accused should get between 1-4 years for each year of grief for each person suffering from the time of the crime to the time of the perpetrator’s conviction. Because, of course, depth of pain and length of sentence should have NOTHING to do with one another. > [@](#): > > Yes, eye for an eye and all that. When something horrible happens to you or a member of your family, Eonwe, come back here and give us your best indignant rant about how above it all you are. You might have a smidgeon of credibility then. > [@](#): > > And this man’s character has exactly what to do with his guilt or punishment? Never heard of a sentencing phase of a trial, I guess. I’d explain the logic behind it, but you’ve already made up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/11 "2002-08-31T00:59:09Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. I don’t see what subsequent grief has at all to do with this guy’s punishment. If they convicted him at the time of the murder, they would have suffered only months of grief; if they convicted him twenty years from now it’d be 47 years of grief. So what? I don’t see why his punishment should at all be related to the duration of time (and therefore the net “amount” of grief suffered) between crime and punishment It’s what’s sometimes called a victim impact statement. And I didn’t read it as meaning that he should be punished more because he was convicted 27 years later.I think the 27 year lapse mostly changed the tense. Change “I have imagined” to “I will always wonder”, and change the reference from spending 27 years trying to live a normal life to one where the future is spent trying to live a normal life and it could have been written after a conviction that occured two months after a murder.Sometimes. a victim’s impact statement might matter (there’s a big difference between an assault that causes someone to lose a few days of work and one that causes a person to be hospitalized for a few months) but I don’t there’s any reason for it in a murder case to give the or survivors a chance to speak. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/12 "2002-08-31T01:02:55Z")
Oops “but I don’t there’s any reason for it in a murder case {b]except\*\* to give the survivors a chance to speak.” ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/13 "2002-09-01T20:14:43Z")
**sugaree** > [@](#): > > This sentiment bothered me a little- it’s like you put a time limit on losing a child. You lose a kid to anything and you’re a wreck for the rest of your life, but if you lose a kid because some fuckwit decided he’d get a little slaphappy with the blunt instruments at the expense of her future marrage and children and travel and career and all the things she should be doing…I’m impressed that Dorthy Moxley didn’t kill Skakel himself. Now that’s real resiiliance. Now, I have not lost anyone particularly close to me due to the actions of others, but IMO grief and regret are one thing, but if you can’t live a happy and fulfilling life 27 years after a loved one was lost in this way, you should really consider grief counseling. People die. Some people die horribly. Life goes on. If this woman is still living her life in constant pain due to the loss of her child that long ago, I think she has some other issues to work out as well. **PunditLisa** , I’m not going to flame you, but you obviously have made up your mind about me. Let me deal with your post point by point. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you could petition Mrs. Moxley to keep quiet on account that her despair is pissing you off… Ok, first of all. This is _not_ a rant about Mrs. Moxley or her family, it’s about the judicial system. Her despair is really none of my concern. > [@](#): > > Because, of course, depth of pain and length of sentence should have NOTHING to do with one another. Um, I might not have been as clear as I could have here, but the thing is… those other people are not the victims! Yes, they are/have suffered to various degrees, but the guy is not on trial for causing them mental anguish, he’s on trial for murder. How many other people might still be suffering because of this murder? Friends of the deceased? Acquaintences? My point here is that I don’t think it’s fair _in court_ to hold someone accountable for the feelings of people who are not victims of a crime. What if the murder really upsets me? Should they take that into account? What if nobody liked the girl who was killed, shold he get a lesser sentence? I think not, and that’s my point. > [@](#): > > When something horrible happens to you or a member of your family, Eonwe, come back here and give us your best indignant rant about how above it all you are. You might have a smidgeon of credibility then. Ok, thank you for writing me off. First of all, you have absolutely no idea about me, my life, or my family, or what kinds of “horrible” things have or have not happened to people I love. As it happens, no, nobody close to me has ever been murdered. So what? I don’t think I need to give the whole spiel about how lack of experience does _not_ mean someone has no right to an opinion, or cannot speak intelligently about a subject. And, again, my real issue is not with how the family of the victim feels. It’s about how much of that should matter in a court of law. Ok? It’s about me wanting my and your rights protected, and our crimes (if we ever commit any) to be looked at fairly and impartially, and to be sentenced accordingly. If you’d be happier with an eye for an eye as the modus opperandi for the US criminal justice system, that’s fine, but somehow I don’t think that’s what your advocating. > [@](#): > > Never heard of a sentencing phase of a trial, I guess. I’d explain the logic behind it, but you’ve already made up your mind. Didn’t think about that. I’d thank you for bringing it up, and helping to fight my ignorance, but you’ve already made up your mind about me. **Doreen** , Interesting point. I don’t know if I really agree with it though, especially as the real victim of this crime is no longer alive. I don’t see how there could be a “victim impact statement.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/14 "2002-09-01T22:41:53Z")
I don’t understand the purpose of this thread, either. Okay… MAYBE the op feels there should be a “best before” date on grief. Maybe people who let their grief run past a certain date need **Eonwe** to visit their homes, slap them upside the head and say “Get _over_ it, already!” The circumstances of this particular death only enhance feelings of grief. The victim didn’t die of some disease or accident, she was brutally murdered. The exact details of her death weren’t fully known until discussed in court. I challenge **Eonwe** to have a child disappear or get killed and go 27 years _without knowing for certain what happened_ and then debate how much grief is enough. If you want to hold this case up as an example of American justice not being applied “fairly and impartially,” you’ve made an incredibly stupid choice. Skakel’s family wealth and influence contributed to the 27-year delay. But for that, this case would have been resolved by the early eighties, at the latest, and Skakel might now be out on parole. If anything, Skakel’s wealth let him spend his best years in freedom. Compare this to a lower- or middle-class 15 year-old suspected of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/15 "2002-09-03T19:09:21Z")
I’ll try one more time and then I quit. Maybe I’m mixing up two different things here and confusing my point. 1. I don’t think the feelings of people _who are not the victims of the crime_ should at all be taken into account when considering punishment of the perpetrator. 2. I’m not suggesting that people should not grieve. _But_, I refuse to accept that someone can go into a court almost 30 years after the fact, and use his or her pain to get something (in this case, perhaps a harder sentence on the criminal). Here, though, this point is moot due to my feelings in point #1 (and I’m sorry for having to ramble through a few posts to really get down to what I mean). 3. This wasn’t part of my original point, but can I just say, stop it with the “_did you have a loved one murdered? Than shut up,_” bit. If all you can say is that my opinions and feelings aren’t valid (unless of course I agree with you, then I’d be allowed to have an opinion, wouldn’t I?), then I don’t know why you’re bothering to post. I know this is the pit, and we’re not required to be constructive, but shutting me down like that is just childish, and says nothing more than “I don’t agree with you, so you must be wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/16 "2002-09-03T23:52:39Z")
**Eonwe** – victim-impact statements are controversial, and your position on this issue is certainly valid. I think you grasped the essence of the issue in your OP when you discussed the many different purposes of the justice system. My personal opinion is that vengeance plays a far larger role in the justice system than is generally acknowledged, and that this is the way it should be. Prior to victim-impact statements, sentences for convicted criminals were determined without regard to the impact of the crime – the actual amount of hurt caused by the perpetrator. Many victims and relatives of victims felt that the system was heavily slanted toward the accused, who was always entitled to make a plea for mercy based on his own good character, etc. The need to balance the ability of a killer to say, “but I’m a good father, I’m an upstanding citizen, etc.” with someone saying similar things about the victim of the crime, lead to the use of victim-impact statements. There is an interesting story from a [Pennsylvania paper](http://www.phillyburbs.com/burlingtoncountytimes/news/news_archive/41577371.htm) discussing Pennsylvania policy, which apparently forbids the person making the victim-impact statement from being emotional. Laws on this subject vary from state to state, and there is probably no one right answer. Any type of sentencing structure is going to have flaws, because ultimately each crime, each criminal, and each victim is unique. Victim-impact statements provide a method of tying the particular victim to the punishment, and help to achieve some kind of retribution. To answer your last two points: 1. I doubt very seriously that Mrs. Moxley would agree that she is not a victim of the crime. I think the entire purpose of her victim-impact statement was to show the court to what extent she was a victim. 2. If Mrs. Moxley’s 30 years of grief should have no impact on the sentence, why should Skakel’s 30 years of being an upstanding citizen, or whatever, have an impact? Both are included in the sentencing deliberations because the justice system is trying to take into account the actual situation here, rather than relying on static, determinate rules for punishment. (Remember, we are talking here only about appropriate punishment, not about determination of guilt, which does not involve either victim-impact statements or statements of the good character of the accused – unless it is relevant to determination of guilt.) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-found-guilty-after-27-years-justice-and-pain-reperations-are-served/126150/17 "2002-09-04T14:21:57Z")
**SpoilerVirgin** , While I agree that to some degree Mrs. Moxley, and anyone else who knew or was close to the victim is also a “victim,” I don’t think that she should be a victim in a legal sense. Imagine a child disappearing at age 15, and then returning home 15 years later. Should that child’s parents be able to take the child to court for the emotional trauma they went through? It seems like an apt analogy, and the answer is no, because nothing really _happened_ to the parents. In the article you link to the following statements are made: > [@](#): > > “It’s a delicate balance between the right of a defendant to have a fair trial and the victim’s right to express to the jury the impact of their loss” > [@](#): > > “It’s part of the totality of the crime. (Juries) should feel the pain of the victim and the victim’s family.” One person is equating the victim and the victim’s family, and the other views them differently. I personally don’t feel that the family members (or other people who are close to the victim… I’m still not sure what makes someone who wasn’t _the_ victim a victim) have had a crime committed against them. As for your second point, I agree, if we are looking at the justice system as a dispenser of vengance, as you suggest. If, however, it’s a “correctional” system, then I think the convicted person’s life is important in determining sentencing.