# Man has consensual sex with a woman then she falsely cries rape. Is it possible to prove innocence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074 "2011-05-16T07:12:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/1 "2011-05-16T07:12:02Z")
Simple scenario: Man meets woman in bar/grocery store/church. Both are sober. He takes her to his hotel room and has sex with her, cumming in whatever hole fits the story. The next day she cries rape for any reason you want to conjur up (mentally disturbed, gold digging, fame hound etc…). She reports the rape and has a rape kit done etc… His DNA is in her. Is it possible for 1. Him to prove his innocence at all? What would that take? It’s his word against hers and she’s got his cum to prove SOMETHING happened. 2. Is there any way for this scenario to play out where the guy doesn’t get branded for life as an accused rapist in his community? Is his reputation immediately destroyed? Can he recover? 3. What would be his primary defense other than “She consented?” ETA: Please remember that for this scenario it is a given that he did NOT actually rape her. Use whatever definition you like for rape. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/2 "2011-05-16T07:22:01Z")
Probably she’d have to be caught confessing to someone. I (vaguely) recall reading of one case where that happened, she was overheard laughing with her friends about how he’d lost thirty pounds or so from the stress, and the woman who overheard reported it. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/3 "2011-05-16T07:30:32Z")
Fortunately in this country our legal system has a presumption of innocence. Regarding reputation, there are many scenarios in which one can tell defamatory lies about someone else. I don’t see how rape is unique in this regard, other than being a particularly severe accusation. Honestly I’d be much more concerned about how a rape _victim_ can prove the sex _wasn’t_ consensual. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/4 "2011-05-16T07:32:38Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Honestly I’d be much more concerned about how a rape _victim_ can prove the sex _wasn’t_ consensual. It appears, at least in popular media today, that all the victim has to do is state “it was not consensual”. Then the accused has to prove that it was. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/5 "2011-05-16T07:33:45Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Regarding reputation, there are many scenarios in which one can tell defamatory lies about someone else. I don’t see how rape is unique in this regard, other than being a particularly severe accusation. Rape and child molestation are more likely to be believed with no evidence and to result in much worse persecution than other accusations. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/6 "2011-05-16T07:37:22Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > It appears, at least in popular media today, that all the victim has to do is state “it was not consensual”. Then the accused has to prove that it was. It’s important to not that “popular media” doesn’t try cases, though. It is still incumbent on the prosecution to prove the elements of rape, which, in the overwhelming majority of US jurisdictions, include both proving force and absence of consent. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/7 "2011-05-16T07:42:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Rape and child molestation are more likely to be believed with no evidence and to result in much worse persecution than other accusations. Odd then that those who prosecute rape seem to think it is a much harder crime to prove than other crimes, and are very wary bringing rape cases. And despite that, wouldn’t you then think that the conviction rate in rape cases, given that the are “more likely to be believed with no evidence” would be higher than in other cases? Because it isn’t, you know. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/8 "2011-05-16T07:46:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Rape and child molestation are more likely to be believed with no evidence and to result in much worse persecution than other accusations. Regarding “more likely to be believed”, I would think the opposite is true. My wife has worked with victims of child molestation. Certainly in her experience people are all too willing to believe that nothing so horrible could actually be happening. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/9 "2011-05-16T07:54:04Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Odd then that those who prosecute rape seem to think it is a much harder crime to prove than other crimes, and are very wary bringing rape cases. “Proved” and “believed” aren’t even close to the same thing. > [@villa](#): > > And despite that, wouldn’t you then think that the conviction rate in rape cases, given that the are “more likely to be believed with no evidence” would be higher than in other cases? No, because unlike public opinion, when it comes to court there are those pesky requirements for evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/10 "2011-05-16T07:55:23Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Man meets woman in bar/grocery store/church. Ohio has some weird houses of worship. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/11 "2011-05-16T07:58:19Z")
under-age? mentally deficient? drunk at the time or under medication? married and they can prove you knew she was maried? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/12 "2011-05-16T08:37:58Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It’s important to not that “popular media” doesn’t try cases, though. Well, they do and they don’t, no matter how much trouble jury selectors go to in order to get an unbiased jury. > [@villa](#): > > Odd then that those who prosecute rape seem to think it is a much harder crime to prove than other crimes, and are very wary bringing rape cases. > > And despite that, wouldn’t you then think that the conviction rate in rape cases, given that the are “more likely to be believed with no evidence” would be higher than in other cases? Because it isn’t, you know. Good, rape is very difficult to prove. I’d say the allegation is more likely to be believed without evidence by the media, the police, prosecutors and people in general, but juries still need ot be convinced beyond and reasonable doubt, and even in cases where rape has actually happened proving lack of consent isn’t easy. The fact that there are any convictions goes to show how easy convictions are to obtain with little evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/13 "2011-05-16T09:08:59Z")
According to the police departments I’ve worked with, the answer is: they don’t usually believe the woman. The District Attorney will prosecute if he/she thinks it’s a workable case. Conviction rate is between 10-13 per cent (depending on which studies you cite). Considering that this is a system in which the burden of proof is not on the accused, I’d say men convicted of rape by false witness is pretty low. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/14 "2011-05-16T12:25:40Z")
I know when they do a rape kit they look for more than just semen. They also look for bruising, evidence of force etc. When that fails to turn up, it will be the first red flag to the police. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/15 "2011-05-16T13:08:31Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I know when they do a rape kit they look for more than just semen. They also look for bruising, evidence of force etc. When that fails to turn up, it will be the first red flag to the police. Of course, someone can be raped by the mere threat of force, e.g. if the victim says “no” but is too scared to fight back. No doubt a lack of such physical evidence makes it much harder to prove the case, but it doesn’t necessarily mean the alleged victim is lying. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/16 "2011-05-16T13:26:04Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Is there any way for this scenario to play out where the guy doesn’t get branded for life as an accused rapist in his community? Is his reputation immediately destroyed? Can he recover? There are generally two ways one can recover from such a thing: a) Win a major sports championship (the more the better) b) Artistic achievements, although the recovery there may be limited to the community of fellow artists and conossieurs ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/17 "2011-05-16T14:09:19Z")
There are three basic defenses to rape: 1. The act never happened. 2. It happened, but she consented. 3. It happened, but with another man. (the “SODDI” defense) In the current hypo, the act was actually consensual, and there is DNA evidence, which rules out (1) and (3). So the accused has to use consent as his defense, and focus on the lack of evidence of force (no bruising, no tearing) as well as inferential behavior (no immediate outcry, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/18 "2011-05-16T14:45:40Z")
Consent cases are not that rare. Juries are certainly open to the idea that a woman might claim rape after consensual sex. They are also open to the idea that a rapist might claim “consent” after being arrested for rape. The relationship of the parties, their behavior, as \*\*Bricker \*\*says, and the jury’s “life experiences” tend to help sort it out. It’s not perfect, but with a plausible story, a good lawyer can convince a jury they shouldn’t convict someone of such a serious crime without more than the allegations of one woman. Sometimes, however, there is no plausible story and the rape scenario is the most logical explanation. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/19 "2011-05-16T14:57:09Z")
He may be able to find witnesses (bartender/waiter/clerk) who would testify about how they were interacting. There may also be security cameras which would show them together. If they appeared to be getting along and she willfully goes to his hotel room, it would bolster his claim of consensual sex. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/20 "2011-05-16T15:17:17Z")
It’s so weird: Nobody ever “cries” burglarly. Or extortion. Or malicious prosecution. People seem to be able to “cry” only rape. (And bloody murder, I guess.) Strange, isn’t it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074.md?page=2)