# Man has consensual sex with a woman then she falsely cries rape. Is it possible to prove innocence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074 "2011-05-16T07:12:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/121 "2011-05-23T10:33:23Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Sure. Uh huh. Sounds kind of paranoid, given how rapes are so under-reported, how rape victims are treated so badly, and how rape is routinely blamed on being slutty. Rape is under-reported because it’s very traumatic and reporting it is only going to extend the ordeal, but that only applies to actual victims and has no bearing whatsoever on the prevalence of false accusations. Rape victims are not treated badly, generally speaking, they are given specially trained female police to deal with, their names are kept out of the papers, unlike those of the men they accuse. Obviously that isn’t likely to make them feel any better about being raped, and administering a rape kit isn’t a comforting experience, but that’s unavoidable. And rape isn’t routinely blamed on being slutty, one copper doing so spawned an international movement of marching harridans. > [@margin](#): > > Yeah? Really? Explain the UK’s absolutely abysmal five percent conviction rate for rape, then. I can hardly wait. Well, rape is difficult to prove, as you have to prove that a sex act too place, that the defendant was involved and, more difficult, that their was no consent. That, and all the false accusations. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/122 "2011-05-23T10:37:53Z")
Also, I stumbled on [this](http://whatmenthinkofwomen.blogspot.com/2007/09/woman-falsely-accused-of-rape-can.html), which is the remarkable tale of a woman supposedly wrongfully accused of rape. > [@](#): > > A woman falsely accused of date-raping a wealthy businessman has told for the first time how the ordeal ruined her life. > > Tanya Hutchison, a 42-year-old mother of five, was cleared of sexual assault but said the nightmarish police investigation had left her permanently scarred. She was outraged, apparently, to be questioned mostly by male officers, and not to have been believed when she said the allegations were “ludicrous”. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/123 "2011-05-23T10:44:44Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Rape is under-reported because it’s very traumatic and reporting it is only going to extend the ordeal, but that only applies to actual victims and has no bearing whatsoever on the prevalence of false accusations. Rape victims are not treated badly, generally speaking, they are given specially trained female police to deal with, their names are kept out of the papers, unlike those of the men they accuse. Obviously that isn’t likely to make them feel any better about being raped, and administering a rape kit isn’t a comforting experience, but that’s unavoidable. And rape isn’t routinely blamed on being slutty, one copper doing so spawned an international movement of marching harridans. > > Well, rape is difficult to prove, as you have to prove that a sex act too place, that the defendant was involved and, more difficult, that their was no consent. That, and all the false accusations. Oh no you don’t, sweetie, don’t you dare lecture me on what rape is like for women, especially when you throw in a sexist slur like harridans. Rape isn’t being blamed on being slutty? Do you live under a rock? Just look at any rape thread here-----there’s one in MPSIM _specifically_ blaming sluts for being raped----and you’ll find they’re chock full of angry men determined to blame sluts for getting themselves raped. One thread about the gang rapes-----they were plural----of the eleven-year-old girl in Cleveland Texas featured adult men called the victim the ‘town ho’ and blamed her ‘choices’ for getting raped. When it comes to rape, men are eager to deny, deny, deny—and then lie. Or call women harridans. If you’re afraid of false rape accusations, there’s a reason, and it’s not because you think women are lying ‘harridans’. Funny, for my male friends—who never use words like harridan—false accusations of rape rank right up there with false accusations of burglary. It’s not that some of the more obnoxious men in this thread are afraid of women _lying._ They’re afraid that somebody’s going to realize that those women are telling the truth. ETA: why ‘crying rape’ marks the user of the phrase as shady. It’s used because it hints at crying wolf, which is what this whole thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/124 "2011-05-23T12:32:15Z")
> [@margin](#): > > When it comes to rape, men are eager to deny, deny, deny—and then lie. No doubt some are. But for the great majority, I see both men and women quick to believe any such accusation, and the only thing they “deny deny deny” is even the possibility that it might not be true. > [@margin](#): > > If you’re afraid of false rape accusations, there’s a reason, and it’s not because you think women are lying ‘harridans’. Funny, for my male friends—who never use words like harridan—false accusations of rape rank right up there with false accusations of burglary. With your obvious dislike of men, referring to your “male friends” comes across like someone talking about the inferiority of blacks and then using the “some of my best friends are black” line. And do you really think that any man would bring up a fear of false accusations in front of you unless they wanted a screaming argument? > [@margin](#): > > It’s not that some of the more obnoxious men in this thread are afraid of women _lying._ They’re afraid that somebody’s going to realize that those women are telling the truth. Translation: It’s OK to call men liars, bad to call women liars. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/125 "2011-05-23T15:22:10Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I don’t know where you’re living, but almost all the advice you’re posting here, I have received before as a male to keep myself safe from mugging, robbery or just general stupidity Which is a far different thing than positioning these general ideas as being about _rape_ prevention, specifically because, unlike mugging and robbery, rape committed by strangers as a crime of opportunity is the _exception_, not the rule. These tips, which go well beyond general when they include “don’t be alone in public after dark,” ignore the reality of how rape happens and prolong the destructive (and victim-blame promoting) myth that rape is something you avoid if you’re careful enough on the streets. > [@](#): > > It burns me that general advice given to keep people safe (whether it be from robbery, assault or rape) suddenly becomes sexist if it is given to a lady. It’s not that it’s sexist, it’s that it’s _pointless for it’s described purpose_. Clutching your purse will perhaps save you from having your purse snatched, but it will not keep you from being raped. Never being alone on the street at night will very easily constrain (or eliminate) your social life and your job and community involvement prospects, but the vast majority of the time, will not keep you from being raped. That these are positioned as _rape_ prevention tips is what’s offensive. The advice is not meaningful. > [@bengangmo](#): > > Intuitively it seems pretty clear that, at least for rapes like “she was too drunk to resist” absolutely wouldn’t have happened if either a) the lady was with a sober buddy that was looking out for her or b) didn’t get drunk in the first place. Intuitively it seems pretty clear that even if a woman is passed out drunk at high noon in the middle of Times Square buck naked, _she wouldn’t be raped if no one raped her_, if no one thought that her incapacity gave them liberty to use her body. _Rapists cause rape_, nothing more, nothing less. It is not up to the victims of rapists to try to mitigate the damage that rapists cause. > [@](#): > > For every other area of crime, it is considered ok to give advice that mitigates risk - why is it not ok to give such advice when it comess to rape? The problem is that the advice is not benign nor does it address the most common sexual violence that women face. It specifically describes that “safety” for women comes by spending a life constantly on the lookout and constantly constrained because of what, for children, we describe as “stranger danger” even though we know – as do the organizations & law enforcement officers giving the advice – that rape is _rarely_ the act of a stranger. (And when it is, most of the tips are still meaningless, because of the nature of how stranger rapists engage their crimes.) And the fact is, we _aren’t_ seeing the flip side of this advice, or rather, the corollary _education_ to deal with what the advice so remarkably ignores. There aren’t, barring a few feminist websites and publications, any public education efforts to explain the concept of _consent_ in an understandable way, and making it clear beyond the slogan of “no means no,” teaching quite clearly to everyone that when you act without consent, you’re acting outside of the law, and that all parties to a sexual encounter have the right to say no _at any time_ and have that encounter _stop_. The way we address the issue now allows us to continue to play the “oh, well, you should’ve been smarter/safer/soberer/wiser/less of a slut” games with women who’ve been victimized. > [@margin](#): > > Rape isn’t being blamed on being slutty? Do you live under a rock? There is a global movement right now called [Slutwalk](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42927752/ns/us_news-life/t/cops-rape-comment-sparks-wave-slutwalks/), a series of anti-rape marches, that arose specifically because a crime-prevention officer in Toronto, ON, said that his number one advice for women to avoid being raped was to not dress “like sluts.” It’s not even _being_ “slutty” it’s enough to some people that a woman merely\* look\* “slutty” (by their opinion) to excuse sexual violence committed against her. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/126 "2011-05-23T15:58:31Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > There is a global movement right now called [Slutwalk](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42927752/ns/us_news-life/t/cops-rape-comment-sparks-wave-slutwalks/), a series of anti-rape marches, that arose specifically because a crime-prevention officer in Toronto, ON, said that his number one advice for women to avoid being raped was to not dress “like sluts.” It’s not even _being_ “slutty” it’s enough to some people that a woman merely\* look\* “slutty” (by their opinion) to excuse sexual violence committed against her. Right, because advising me on locking my doors and fitting burglar alarms is the same as excusing burglary. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/127 "2011-05-23T18:12:43Z")
AFAIK, crime stats on false accusations of rape are virtually worthless and undoubtedly understate significantly the level of false accusations. Many rape accusations ultimately boil down to he-said-she-said situations, in which no one knows the truth other than the participants (if even they do) and certainly not the people compiling these stats. AFAIK, the stats only count as false accusations those situations where there is compelling evidence to disbelieve the accusation, and not the far more numerous ambiguous cases. [In general, I agree with Der Trihs’ comments in this thread.] ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/128 "2011-05-23T18:27:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > AFAIK, crime stats on false accusations of rape are virtually worthless and undoubtedly understate significantly the level of false accusations. “AFAIK” and “undoubtedly” don’t really fit together, do they. Don’t admit to pulling something out of your ass and then claim it is undoubtedly true. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Many rape accusations ultimately boil down to he-said-she-said situations, in which no one knows the truth other than the participants (if even they do) and certainly not the people compiling these stats. And a significant majority of the he-said-she-said situations (which are also alarmingly common in other types of crime too) are not prosecuted. And a majority of those that are prosecuted result in acquittals. An acquittal doesn’t mean a false accusation of rape, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/129 "2011-05-23T18:34:22Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Right, because advising me on locking my doors and fitting burglar alarms is the same as excusing burglary. Did you read a word I wrote or simply decide to use my post as an opportunity to repeat something that I _just_ addressed? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/130 "2011-05-23T18:36:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > “AFAIK” and “undoubtedly” don’t really fit together, do they. Don’t admit to pulling something out of your ass and then claim it is undoubtedly true. I’ve not seen documentation, hence the “AFAIK”. But it has to be true hence the “undoubtedly”. What’s the alternative? People are compiling these stats based on psychic knowlege? Many of these accusations are unknowable. You seem to acknowledge this yourself, but don’t address the implication for your position. > [@](#): > > And a significant majority of the he-said-she-said situations (which are also alarmingly common in other types of crime too) are not prosecuted. And a majority of those that are prosecuted result in acquittals. I’m not sure what you’re saying is true. But even if it is, it doesn’t impact the point I was making. The stats that are getting tossed around are not percentages of cases that were prosecuted and/or convicted. Actually we were talking about “reported rapes”. > [@](#): > > An acquittal doesn’t mean a false accusation of rape, by the way. True. (What of it?) ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/131 "2011-05-23T18:42:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No doubt some are. But for the great majority, I see both men and women quick to believe any such accusation, and the only thing they “deny deny deny” is even the possibility that it might not be true. You’re denying that one of the most basic and ancient forms of sexism against discrimination against women not only doesn’t exist but that in fact women are the ones doing the oppressing. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > With your obvious dislike of men, referring to your “male friends” comes across like someone talking about the inferiority of blacks and then using the “some of my best friends are black” line. And do you really think that any man would bring up a fear of false accusations in front of you unless they wanted a screaming argument? > Translation: It’s OK to call men liars, bad to call women liars. That’s so stupid it’s almost mind boggling. Tell me, Der Trihs. Do you think black people lie about racism? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/132 "2011-05-23T20:30:05Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Intuitively it seems pretty clear that even if a woman is passed out drunk at high noon in the middle of Times Square buck naked, _she wouldn’t be raped if no one raped her_, if no one thought that her incapacity gave them liberty to use her body. > > _Rapists cause rape_, nothing more, nothing less. It is not up to the victims of rapists to try to mitigate the damage that rapists cause. I think that denies victims their due agency, and I find that to be a patronizing attitude. > [@](#): > > The problem is that the advice is not benign nor does it address the most common sexual violence that women face. The second part of your sentence needs examination. Let’s all admit that you’re right, as you undoubtedly are, that most rapes are acquaintance rapes and that advice about not walking alone down a dark street (or whatever) only addresses a small minority of rapes. Aren’t those rapes worth addressing? If 90% of car fatalities are caused by drunk drivers, and 10% of fatalities are caused by road rage, and if I can reduce my risk of death by road rage by 10% if I pull into to the right lane when someone is tailgating me, you better believe I’ll pull into the right lane when someone is tailgating me. Pointing out that drunk drivers are responsible for most vehicle fatalities does not refute that piece of advice, nor does pointing out that the road-rager is entirely to blame for my death. Granted the road rager is a horrible person: if I don’t want that horrible person to kill me, I’ll take measures to minimize the chance of that happening. As for whether the advice is benign, I disagree. Some such advice is malignant (“Don’t dress like sluts.”) Other such advice is entirely benign (“Keep an eye on your drink when you’re at a party with strangers.”) Yes, sometimes the advice might lead to a change in your lifestyle in order to minimize the risk of encountering a rapist; in those instances, it’s up to you to decide whether the reduced risk is worth the inconvenience. But it serves nobody to act as though there’s nothing a person can do to increase or decrease the chances of an assault. That’s totally unrealistic and counter to our experiences in every other avenue of life. And if you disagree, I invite you to come up with another real-world situation in which people often face a general threat (auto fatality, theft from their home, homicide, aggravated assault, eaten by bears, cancer, whatever) where there’s nothing we can do that increases or decreases our risk. I seriously can’t think of any. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/133 "2011-05-23T20:38:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think that denies victims their due agency, and I find that to be a patronizing attitude. > > The second part of your sentence needs examination. Let’s all admit that you’re right, as you undoubtedly are, that most rapes are acquaintance rapes and that advice about not walking alone down a dark street (or whatever) only addresses a small minority of rapes. Aren’t those rapes worth addressing? > > If 90% of car fatalities are caused by drunk drivers, and 10% of fatalities are caused by road rage, and if I can reduce my risk of death by road rage by 10% if I pull into to the right lane when someone is tailgating me, you better believe I’ll pull into the right lane when someone is tailgating me. Pointing out that drunk drivers are responsible for most vehicle fatalities does not refute that piece of advice, nor does pointing out that the road-rager is entirely to blame for my death. Granted the road rager is a horrible person: if I don’t want that horrible person to kill me, I’ll take measures to minimize the chance of that happening. You find it patronizing to blame the crime on the criminal? It’s not exactly unheard of. As for focusing on the 10%… Yes, but you’re ignoring the fact that that 10% is _all_ that certain people talk about, focus on, and admit that exists. The constant focus is on the 10%—and not just that, but solely on the victim. We never get around to the part of the equation where the whole weight of avoiding rape—like it’s some kind of obstacle in a woman’s path and she just has to step around it----is placed on rapists, their buddies, their enablers, and all the guys who just will not discuss the 90%. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/134 "2011-05-23T21:23:23Z")
> [@margin](#): > > You find it patronizing to blame the crime on the criminal? No. You made that up. Try reading folks to figure out what they’re saying, not reading folks to figure out the worst possible misinterpretation of their words you can come up with and then attacking that. That’s stupid. > [@](#): > > Yes, but you’re ignoring the fact that that 10% is _all_ that certain people talk about, focus on, and admit that exists. The constant focus is on the 10%—and not just that, but solely on the victim. We never get around to the part of the equation where the whole weight of avoiding rape—like it’s some kind of obstacle in a woman’s path and she just has to step around it----is placed on rapists, their buddies, their enablers, and all the guys who just will not discuss the 90%. Ever. The whole weight for avoiding rape is placed on rapists, sure, that’s reasonable. Their buddies? Their enablers? Guys who won’t discuss acquaintance rape share the burden of rape with rapists? Now that’s crazy talk. Unless it’s not. Unless maybe people besides the rapists can do something to influence the odds of rape. Which is what I believe. And a big part of that is absolutely up to men, making rape socially unacceptable (which sounds ridiculous but really is not–imagine if being a rapist was akin to being a pedophile. Do you think Mike Tyson would have a career if he’d been convicted of raping a child?). And if there really is anyone who pretends acquaintance rape doesn’t happen, they need to be educated. But if we think that other folks can influence the chances of rapists completing their crime, isn’t it possible that potential victims could have some influence also? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/135 "2011-05-23T22:07:23Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Right, because advising me on locking my doors and fitting burglar alarms is the same as excusing burglary. I think her point is that advising someone to eat less ice cream to prevent burglary is the same as telling women they should not be alone with strangers at night in order to prevent rape: the advice doesn’t work and misses the point ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/136 "2011-05-23T23:20:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think that denies victims their due agency, and I find that to be a patronizing attitude. What agency does a person who is incapacitated by alcohol have to begin with? > [@](#): > > The second part of your sentence needs examination. Let’s all admit that you’re right, as you undoubtedly are, that most rapes are acquaintance rapes and that advice about not walking alone down a dark street (or whatever) only addresses a small minority of rapes. Aren’t those rapes worth addressing? They are, and **those tips don’t actually address those rapes either**. There is no rape that is ever going to be stopped by someone not having full hands, because items can be dropped pretty damn fast. There is no rape that is ever going be stopped by dressing modestly because there is no standard for that. There is no rape that is ever going to be stopped because someone changed their locks unless it’s the stupidest rapist on the earth. > [@](#): > > If 90% of car fatalities are caused by drunk drivers, and 10% of fatalities are caused by road rage, and if I can reduce my risk of death by road rage by 10% if I pull into to the right lane when someone is tailgating me, you better believe I’ll pull into the right lane when someone is tailgating me. And the collateral cost of your pulling into a right hand lane is negligible, if it exists at all. What is the time and energy cost, the inconvenience cost, the lateness cost to women if they follow the advice that in order to be safe, they should walk in the other direction or go hide every time someone harasses them from a passing car? What is the cost if women are too frightened to go out alone at night? You act as if these are things that can be done as easily as changing lanes and have some measurable effect on safety, and neither are true. > [@margin](#): > > Yes, but you’re ignoring the fact that that 10% is _all_ that certain people talk about, focus on, and admit that exists. The constant focus is on the 10%—and not just that, but solely on the victim. We never get around to the part of the equation where the whole weight of avoiding rape—like it’s some kind of obstacle in a woman’s path and she just has to step around it----is placed on rapists, their buddies, their enablers, and all the guys who just will not discuss the 90%. Ever. I couldn’t have said this better myself. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The whole weight for avoiding rape is placed on rapists, sure, that’s reasonable. Their buddies? Their enablers? Guys who won’t discuss acquaintance rape share the burden of rape with rapists? Now that’s crazy talk. > > Unless it’s not. Unless maybe people besides the rapists can do something to influence the odds of rape. Of course they can, because the majority of rapes happen not by people who’ve _dismissed_ the entirety of social convention, but by people who’ve _absorbed_ social convention regarding the right of women to autonomy over their own bodies. The attitudes which drive acquaintance rape are things that can be talked about, especially amongst men, and could be re-molded through the same social change mechanisms that re-molded how we approach many things. You brought up drunk driving, and that’s actually an excellent social model to emulate. We changed how drunk driving is viewed in the span of a generation with one simple phrase: friends don’t let friends drive drunk. That spurred a social change in which people stopped laughing and saying “haha, get home safe _if you can_ haha” and began questioning friends’ sobriety, began taking keys, offering rides, offering a place to sleep. We stopped believing that it was anyone’s responsibility to keep themselves safe from the ravages of drunk drivers, and instead shifted the responsibility to everyone who socializes with alcohol to recognize that drunk driving is irresponsible and unacceptable, and to prevent your friends from doing it - in other words, to make drunk driving a major social taboo. Right now, we position public discussions of rape around the responsibilities of women to protect ourselves: don’t get drunk, always watch your drink, don’t be alone in the dark, and so on. It’s the same pre-1980s approach to drunk driving: stay off the streets late at night/on weekends/New Years/St. Patricks because the drunks will be out there! We could morph the conversation. “Friends don’t let friends have sex with people who don’t say yes.” In a generation, it might become common sense and common knowledge that you need active, meaningful consent from someone before you have sex with them. Shocking! All it takes is for people to start to speak up. When someone in a group of friends sees a group of drunk women in a bar and says “oh, easy pickin’s” say “dude, that’s messed up, they’re too drunk to say yes.” When your son or your little brother or your friend’s little brother or the kid on the soccer team you coach says something utterly screwed up like this you call him on it and don’t do it subtly. And this is a conversation that needs to happen amongst men. But it doesn’t. Apparently it’s more important to shriek and shry over the potential possibility of one day maybe having sex with someone and her potentially alleging that perhaps it wasn’t consensual. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/137 "2011-05-24T00:58:56Z")
One of my main issues with this emphasis on women protecting themselves is how it often it seems be preached by men. It is the epitome of patronizing . Women are fully aware that the world is dangerous place because we are told this all the time. Women are fully aware that they aren’t allowed to get away with things that men can take for granted. Practically when we’re still in diapers, women are taught they can’t even sit with their legs open. Something as basic as that is a no-no for us. Meanwhile, boys are allowed to run free, with no gender-specific safety advisories curtailing their behaviors. So it’s really annoying when men–who as a group are encouraged to be this population of thrill-seeking, partying, adventurers burning towns down with their wild rascally antics–feel the need to lecture women–who traditionally are encouraged to be the opposite–about what they need to do to improve their safety. It’s like, seriously? What makes men feel qualified to pass this information along, when they’re not expected to follow it themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/138 "2011-05-24T02:43:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > One of my main issues with this emphasis on women protecting themselves is how it often it seems be preached by men. It is the epitome of patronizing . Women are fully aware that the world is dangerous place because we are told this all the time. Women are fully aware that they aren’t allowed to get away with things that men can take for granted. Practically when we’re still in diapers, women are taught they can’t even sit with their legs open. Something as basic as that is a no-no for us. Meanwhile, boys are allowed to run free, with no gender-specific safety advisories curtailing their behaviors. First, outside of these threads where I say what I think is really freakin’ obvious (that rape is like other crimes in that the risk of its occurrence can to some level be controlled by potential victims), I’ve never offered anyone tips for how to avoid rape. Second, when I linked earlier to WOMEN giving this advice, it was dismissed, bizarrely, as a product of our society–as though the posters here aren’t products of our society, too. Now you want to talk about how men are preaching it. Unfair to dismiss the women in this case. Third, when I was a boy, my father had me write pacifist essays, out of fear that the draft would be reinstated and I’d need a record of conscientious objection in order to avoid something like Vietnam. Perhaps rare, but there are cases in which boys face dangers women don’t face, and there are gender-specific precautions sometimes thereby given. (I imagine a more common example would be boys being taught how to defend themselves in a fistfight, but since I had a hippie dad, I can’t address that). You’re simply wrong on all accounts. If your problem is with idiot cops who tell rape victims they should dress sluttily, of course I agree with you. They suck. However, there’s a real distinction to be made between them and between women’s centers who give advice on reducing one’s chances of being raped. **tumbledown** , as I’ve said previously, DUI is a good example. There is a really good way to avoid being the victim of a drunk driver: **don’t get in the car with one**. Most drunk driving fatalities can’t be controlled, sure, but this set can, and when I was a teenager, I heard this advice repeatedly from multiple sources. Yet somehow I didn’t take this message to absolve drunk drivers of their responsibility for deaths, because I don’t have a simplistic zero-sum approach to morality. Edit: Lemme say one more time: of course the lion’s share of the attention should be on preventing rapists from being rapists, just like the lion’s share of the attention should be on preventing drunk drivers from being drunk drivers. The reason this thread has so much talk about women preventing themselves from being rapists is because of the totally unreasonable position that rape is **sui generis** , a crime that the potential victims cannot increase or decrease their risk of being affected by. If someone came into a thread on drunk driving and claimed it was patronizing to tell people not to get into a car with a drunk driver, suddenly all the attention would be on that bizarre claim, too. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/139 "2011-05-24T13:39:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > First, outside of these threads where I say what I think is really freakin’ obvious (that rape is like other crimes in that the risk of its occurrence can to some level be controlled by potential victims), I’ve never offered anyone tips for how to avoid rape. I’m not talking about you specifically, either though you do seem to be deliberately missing the point other people are making. It’s not about giving women tips. It’s about _harping_ on these tips over and over again, to the point that’s its the main thing which is talked about when we discuss rape prevention. All it takes is for you to google “rape prevention” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. Some of this advice is straight up wackadoodle, like advising women not to have long hair that can be easily grabbed. The impracticality of this advice is an insult to people’s intelligence, and the fact that its widely disseminated underscores the absurd length’s society is willing to go to control women’s behavior. > [@](#): > > Second, when I linked earlier to WOMEN giving this advice, it was dismissed, bizarrely, as a product of our society–as though the posters here aren’t products of our society, too. “Women’s campus centers”=women? I assume those are _institutions_ that are run and funded by men and/or women. Institutions are not people posting on the internet, casually comparing women’s bodies to cash, like posters here do from their ivory towers of male privilege. And yes, believe it or not, “women’s campus centers” are not going to be immune from society’s preoccupation with warning women. There’s nothing special about “women’s campus centers” and I don’t know why you think we should bow down to their authority on this subject instead of including them in our critical analysis of the problem. Women’s campus centers are probably the #1 proponents of the “rape is about power” meme…something that I know you’ve vigorously argued against in the past. So if you defer to their ways with rape prevention, are you prepared to accept them as the authority on rape theory? Something tells me no. Probably best to leave them out of it then. > [@](#): > > Third, when I was a boy, my father had me write pacifist essays,… Are you really trying to dismiss my point about men and women’s upbringing _in general_ by talking about you, as an individual, writing a bunch of pacifist essays? Seriously? With a straight face? No sarcasm at all? If you’re going to argue that men aren’t taught to be fearless and brave, while women are programmed to be fearful and cautious, then I forfeit any further discussions about this with you. You win, I lose. Not worth the energy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074/140 "2011-05-24T14:54:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not talking about you specifically, either though you do seem to be deliberately missing the point other people are making. It’s not about giving women tips. It’s about _harping_ on these tips over and over again, to the point that’s its the main thing which is talked about when we discuss rape prevention. > > All it takes is for you to google “rape prevention” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. Some of this advice is straight up wackadoodle, like advising women not to have long hair that can be easily grabbed. The impracticality of this advice is an insult to people’s intelligence, and the fact that its widely disseminated underscores the absurd length’s society is willing to go to control women’s behavior. First, however confident you are in your own argument, it’s idiotic to assume that those who disagree with you are deliberately missing the point. Maybe I’m stupid and am not getting it because I’m stupid; maybe you’re not making your point as clearly as you think you are–or maybe I get your point and disagree with it. So knock it off with the implication that I’m being dishonest. Second, consider controlling your google experiment: google “\* prevention,” replacing \* with any other crime. I did it and didn’t see any links to addressing potential culprits. With one exception: if you google “sexual violence prevention,” you WILL find resources about educating people not only not to commit it, but also not to let it happen around them, not to be bystanders. So again you’re wrong: there’s **more** discussion of preventing people from becoming (or from condoning) rapists than there is of preventing people from committing arson, embezzlement, rape, or murder. > [@](#): > > “Women’s campus centers”=women? I assume those are _institutions_ that are run and funded by men and/or women. Institutions are not people posting on the internet, casually comparing women’s bodies to cash, like posters here do from their ivory towers of male privilege. And yes, believe it or not, “women’s campus centers” are not going to be immune from society’s preoccupation with warning women. Of course they’re not, any more than you’re immune from society’s preoccupation with adopting an extreme viewpoint that’s ideologically correct without any consideration for whether it’s reasonable. This point is completely irrelevant. > [@](#): > > Women’s campus centers are probably the #1 proponents of the “rape is about power” meme…something that I know you’ve vigorously argued against in the past. So if you defer to their ways with rape prevention, are you prepared to accept them as the authority on rape theory? Something tells me no. Probably best to leave them out of it then. This is a foolish argument and shows you’re missing the point. I refer to women’s centers to show that your point about rape prevention tips being Male Privilege Speaking or whatever is stupid, not to say that they are correct about everything. > [@](#): > > Are you really trying to dismiss my point about men and women’s upbringing _in general_ by talking about you, as an individual, writing a bunch of pacifist essays? Seriously? With a straight face? No sarcasm at all? You are aware that parts of posts in parentheses are part of the post, I assume, so I’ll go ahead and preemptively accept your sheepish apology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-has-consensual-sex-with-a-woman-then-she-falsely-cries-rape-is-it-possible-to-prove-innocence/582074.md?page=8)