# Man, "Pet Sounds" is really overrated. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099 "2005-11-08T20:47:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/21 "2005-11-09T03:25:22Z")
Pet Sounds has three pop masterpieces: God Only Knows, Wouldn’t It Be Nice and Sloop John B. The rest may be well-crafted musical compositions, but God are they dreary! Asher’s lyrics do not wear well, actually… overrated from the beginning. There is a prevailing, heavy sound of tympani and low strings that makes me feel like I’m being sedated. P.S. needs some Viagra! Pop/Rock is driven by the energy of Bass/Drums and lit up by bright arrangements and energetic vocals. I agree with VCO3 that Sunflower and Surf’s Up are much better albums, however I don’t agree that Sloop John B. is incongruous… Yah, it’s some white California kids signing a caribbean folk song, but boy it sounds great. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/22 "2005-11-09T03:50:53Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > Come on, “Sloop John B” is a wacky, lighthearted romp that has nothing to do with the album in any way and was shoehorned into the tracklisting because they thought it would help it sell! “Wacky”? “Lighthearted”? Who’s getting whooshed, me or you? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/23 "2005-11-09T03:55:48Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I and it’s still very much a “you had to be there” kind of thing. I disagree. I’m only 30. I wasn’t around for Pet Sounds when it came out. I only started realizing its genius about four years ago. It’s not at all a “you had to be there” kind of thing. I think calling it “raw material” for “other’s synthesis” damning it with faint praise. It’s a finished product, through and through, and I can hardly think of any albums currently with such fantastic production and sound. It really was 30 years ahead of its time, and I am still dazzled at the sounds and quality of a recording made back in the 60s. There’s few records that sound that good even today. It’s such an intricate, soulful, and masterfully produced work. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/24 "2005-11-09T06:32:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I don’t know what kind of music you listen to, **VCO3** , but I’d put _Pet Sounds_ up there with My Bloody Valentine’s _Loveless_ as best albums of all time. And I like them for similar reasons: their experimentation, and rich, thick, subtle sonic landscapes. Both albums give me the goosebumps. I listen to \*literally \* everything, from dirty south hip hop to indonesian and javanese gamelan to primitive blues bootlegs to proto-ragtime to blahblahblah. I’m not saying _Pet Sounds_ is a bad record; I’m just saying it’s silly and unwarranted that it’s always the auto-“Best album ever”/best Beach Boys album, when I feel that they actually have three or four albums that are stronger. And, not to set myself up as “Mr. Contrary Opinion,” but I recently decided that _Isn’t Anything_ is a better album than _Loveless_. New Thread? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/25 "2005-11-09T07:04:12Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > I listen to \*literally \* everything, from dirty south hip hop to indonesian and javanese gamelan to primitive blues bootlegs to proto-ragtime to blahblahblah. > > I’m not saying _Pet Sounds_ is a bad record; I’m just saying it’s silly and unwarranted that it’s always the auto-“Best album ever”/best Beach Boys album, when I feel that they actually have three or four albums that are stronger. > > And, not to set myself up as “Mr. Contrary Opinion,” but I recently decided that _Isn’t Anything_ is a better album than _Loveless_. New Thread? 🙂 _Pet Sounds_ is silly? You’re officially nuts in my book. Anyhow, yeah. There are those who say _Isn’t Anything_ is better than _Loveless_. You’re not really Mr. Contrary–there’s many who will agree with you. Personally, that record does nothing for me. In fact, I don’t like any MBV except for _Loveless_. (Just like I don’t really like much Beach Boys outside _Pet Sounds_ and, perhaps, the uneven but still enjoyable _Smile_) But _Loveless_…when that thunderous snare beacons the opening of “Only Shallow,” I quite literally get a shiver up my spine. There are precious few records that do that to me–the one in the OP and this one are two. Nothing on _Isn’t Anything_ affects me in that way. There’s some decent songs on there, but they’re…I dunno…meh. They’re not transcendent or sublime in the way _Loveless_ is. I suppose you can argue that in terms of pop structure, _Isn’t Anything_ has better songs, but it doesn’t reach the heights of imagination that _Loveless_ does. It’s like _The Bends_ vs. _OK Computer_ (or _Kid A_) The former has arguably better pop songs. The latter are truly groundbreaking and more interesting to listen to (at least for me.) I also come from the perhaps not-so-popular perspective that the listener can be wrong. There’s several bands I don’t understand but respect the work of because I see that music lovers and critics have time and time again hailed the genius of it. For example, I just don’t get Pink Floyd. Doesn’t do a thing for me. But rather than dismiss them as “silly,” I just assume there’s something I simply don’t get about the music. For whatever reason, it doesn’t resonate with me, but I will defend Pink Floyd as being great artists, even though their work doesn’t resonate with me. Same with Husker Du. That’s probably the best example for me. I am completely clueless as to why this group is so revered in rock history. But it’s clear to me that they did have something and did something very special, and have a genius that I simply cannot connect with. I know they’re great, I really believe they’re one of the best rock bands ever, but I simply cannot hear it. Perhaps that sounds weird to you. But I think there can be an element of objectivity in what is essentially a subjective undertaking. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/26 "2005-11-09T07:15:30Z")
By the way, [this book may be a fun read for you.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1569802769/qid=1131520391/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7002727-5962411?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) It’s _Kill Your Idols: A New Generation of Rock Writers Reconsiders the Classics._ Actually, reading the Amazon reviews of the book are just as fun. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/27 "2005-11-09T07:27:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > _Pet Sounds_ is silly? You’re officially nuts in my book. No, no - Pet Sounds isn’t silly, the _attitude_ that it’s automatically and unquestionably their best work is silly. I just don’t think it’s that cut-and-dry in the way it is with other bands like Wire or the Zombies, where there’s one album that’s head and shoulders above everything else that they did. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Anyhow, yeah. There are those who say _Isn’t Anything_ is better than _Loveless_. You’re not really Mr. Contrary–there’s many who will agree with you. Personally, that record does nothing for me. In fact, I don’t like any MBV except for _Loveless_. (Just like I don’t really like much Beach Boys outside _Pet Sounds_ and, perhaps, the uneven but still enjoyable _Smile_) But _Loveless_…when that thunderous snare beacons the opening of “Only Shallow,” I quite literally get a shiver up my spine. There are precious few records that do that to me–the one in the OP and this one are two. Again, _Loveless_ is a **great** record, and without it we wouldn’t even be talking about MBV. It’s one of the more important and influential records of the past 30 years, and it’s definitely their most important record. I guess I’ve just decided that I like _Isn’t Anything_ more - “Soft as snow (but warm inside)” has somehow taken the place of “Only Shallow” for me in that it gives me that same effect - rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat and then RIDICULOUSNESS that gives me the shivers. Hell, I might just like the record because I got so burnt out on listening to _Loveless_ over and over! Hell, I had _Isn’t Anything_ for 10 years before it clicked with me; I always thought it was an unlistenable mess (and it kind of is), and then after 10 years I put it on and it just _clicked_. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/28 "2005-11-09T07:35:29Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > By the way, [this book may be a fun read for you.](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1569802769/qid=1131520391/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7002727-5962411?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) It’s _Kill Your Idols: A New Generation of Rock Writers Reconsiders the Classics._ Actually, reading the Amazon reviews of the book are just as fun. I bought the book back when it came out (i’m a HUGE fan of Jim Derogatis), but I was bummed at how toothless most of the “New Generation” was - wow, the Doors suck? Never heard that one before! Wings’ _Ram_ isn’t really a good album? No way! Bob Marley’s _Exodus_ is overrated dreck? Shit, you might as well have taken on Carole King’s _Tapestry_, you lazy bastard! Jim Derogatis - one of my favorite shit-slingers - attacks _Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band_ with all the vigor and aggression of a neutered hamster. It’s one of the laziest things I’ve ever read. I kept wanting someone to tear the ultimate critical sacred cow, Captain Beefheart’s _Trout Mask Replica_, a new asshole. I wanted someone to call out Can for being the boring white funk band that they really were (don’t worry, I love them - but let’s be honest with ourselves!). I wanted someone to call out white critics for fawning over Public Enemy and NWA because they wanted to look culturally aware. The book simply contains none of that, or anything approaching that. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/29 "2005-11-09T07:57:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I just don’t think it’s that cut-and-dried in the way it is with other bands like Wire or the Zombies, where there’s one album that’s head and shoulders above everything else that they did. Just for laughs, which Wire album would that be? ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/30 "2005-11-09T08:12:37Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > Just for laughs, which Wire album would that be? C’mon, baby, you know it’s _Pink Flag_ (say _Chairs Missing_. I dare you!). 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/31 "2005-11-09T08:25:36Z")
I would in fact say Chairs Missing, and yet another third of the population would say 154. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/32 "2005-11-09T08:53:53Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > . . . i’m a HUGE fan of Jim Derogatis . . . Interesting fact: Jim Derogatis is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/33 "2005-11-09T08:57:11Z")
Sorry, meant to bristle at this too: > [@VCO3](#): > > . . . I kept wanting someone to tear the ultimate critical sacred cow, Captain Beefheart’s _Trout Mask Replica_, a new asshole. I wanted someone to call out Can for being the boring white funk band that they really were (don’t worry, I love them - but let’s be honest with ourselves!). . . TMR is a personal sacred cow of my one, dudecicle. I just love it because I love it; I didn’t know I was “supposed” to love it until I had already left my last boyfriend for it and had three children by it. And Can, “boring white funk”? You must be listening to a different Can. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/34 "2005-11-09T13:31:20Z")
Anybody read the 33 1/3 Series books on either [Loveless](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826415482/102-4165839-6085708?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance) or [Pet Sounds](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826416705/102-4165839-6085708?v=glance&n=283155&%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance)? Links are to the Amazon listings for the books. I have read two of the 33 1/3 series - the ones on Exile on Main St. and The Ramones - both were worth reading but for different reasons I won’t hijack this thread any more to go into. Just curious. **VC03** - I enjoy your rants, but don’t feel much need to engage hard. You obviously invest a lot of time in music - as do a bunch of Dopers, including me. I appreciate your comments on Pet Sounds and on certain days, I do see where your POV has merit. For the most part, though, I just love the album and enjoy letting the production wash over me. To me, the first, most important aspect to art is the connection - do I like it? Pet Sounds delivers that to me in spades in ways I could never hope to articulate with a reasoned, detailed exegesis. It simply works on me on all levels. **Puly** - fwiw, when I first heard Only Shallow (only about 4 months ago, btw - what can I say, I just never took the time) it had a similar effect. Just wow. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/35 "2005-11-09T13:50:06Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > I would in fact say Chairs Missing, and yet another third of the population would say 154. Heh. I’m a HUGE Wire fan, and there’s no way _Pink Flag_ is head and shoulders above _Chairs Missing_. Of the first three, my favorite is _154_, but that’s mainly for reasons of nostalgia and how I got into the band. _Chairs Missing_ is a better album, though. As for _Pink Flag_, once again, great album, but there’s much debate to be had which of the first three Wire albums are the best. Not one is clearly better than the others. Personally, though, I listen to _A Bell is A Cup…_ more than _Pink Flag_. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/36 "2005-11-09T13:59:31Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > I wanted someone to call out white critics for fawning over Public Enemy and NWA because they wanted to look culturally aware. The book simply contains none of that, or anything approaching that. You’re right; the book is basically a skewering of Boomer sacred cows, and doesn’t even seem aware of the newer sacred cows that have supplanted them. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/37 "2005-11-09T14:00:32Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > **Puly** - fwiw, when I first heard Only Shallow (only about 4 months ago, btw - what can I say, I just never took the time) it had a similar effect. Just wow. I only first heard it three or four years ago myself, on Yahoo! Launchcast of all places. I was laying on the couch reading a book when the song came on and I thought to myself “What is this beautiful noise?” Turns out it was My Bloody Valentine–a band I was well aware of, just never got around to listening to. (Actually, I did know them for their cover of Wire’s “Map Ref…” [my favorite Wire song], but was hardly impressed by it. In fact, I still don’t like that cover.) I will admit, though, it took me about two or three spins of _Loveless_ to really get into it. It was a challenging listen (those washes of guitars slowly going in and out of tune were really disconcerting at first), yet captivating enough that I kept coming back to it. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/38 "2005-11-09T16:42:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m a HUGE Wire fan, and there’s no way _Pink Flag_ is head and shoulders above _Chairs Missing_. Of the first three, my favorite is _154_, but that’s mainly for reasons of nostalgia and how I got into the band. _Chairs Missing_ is a better album, though. As for _Pink Flag_, once again, great album, but there’s much debate to be had which of the first three Wire albums are the best. Not one is clearly better than the others. Personally, though, I listen to _A Bell is A Cup…_ more than _Pink Flag_. I know. I just threw out the Wire bit to see if anyone would bite. I actually like _Chairs Missing_ the best. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/39 "2005-11-10T04:55:49Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > Let’s talk about the _filler_ on Pet Sounds - there’s quite a bit to slog through! > . “I’m waiting for the day” is similiarly a throwaway - it’s pretty much the same song as “Don’t talk,” which may be the album’s finest song, just not as impressive or memorable. What is it with Brian and writing the same song twice on this record? I strongly disagree with your superficial assessment of “I’m waiting for the day”. “Don’t talk” is a pretty love song and a pop gem. “I’m waiting for the day” sounds like a pretty love song, but in the end is not. In the end the guy who was professing all that love is taunting the object of his lost affection. > [@](#): > > You didn’t think, that I could sit around and let him work. > You didn’t think, that I could sit around and watch him take you. > You didn’t think, that I could sit back and let you go." Emotionally disfunctional, creepy shit IMO. Not “the same song twice”, not “a throwaway”, not “filler”. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-pet-sounds-is-really-overrated/330099/40 "2005-11-10T05:16:58Z")
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