# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/1 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")
A Dutchman who hid a Jewish girl from the Nazis has returned a medal that he received to the Israeli government, in[protest over family members killed in Gaza.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28824672) (BBC Video). Don’t know why he should have done that. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/2 "2014-08-17T16:34:25Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A Dutchman who hid a Jewish girl from the Nazis has returned a medal that he received to the Israeli government, in[protest over family members killed in Gaza.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28824672) (BBC Video). > Don’t know why he should have done that. Perhaps to point out the issue that the government of the people once persecuted and abused is behaving exactly like the government that did it to them. If people do not protest, and do it in a public and very _obvious_ manner, then how will a government know that whatever action they are doing is not approved of? The average repost this/click this/sign this online petition and even man in the street protest can be ignored. Publicly returning an award, or refusing an award is a very obvious means of protesting that demonstrates how intensely something affects you on a very personal level [because, hey, who doesn’t like getting medals] [URL=“[http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/](http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/)”] ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/3 "2014-08-17T16:58:20Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Perhaps to point out the issue that the government of the people once persecuted and abused is behaving exactly like the government that did it to them. If people do not protest, and do it in a public and very _obvious_ manner, then how will a government know that whatever action they are doing is not approved of? The average repost this/click this/sign this online petition and even man in the street protest can be ignored. Publicly returning an award, or refusing an award is a very obvious means of protesting that demonstrates how intensely something affects you on a very personal level [because, hey, who doesn’t like getting medals] > [URL=“[http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/](http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/)”] I’d quarrel with the word “exactly,” but i agree generally. This action gets attention, makes a statement, and has people talking. There’s not much an average person can do to accomplish what this guy accomplished. Whether it makes a whit of difference in the long run is impossible to determine. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/4 "2014-08-17T17:42:20Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Perhaps to point out the issue that the government of the people once persecuted and abused is behaving exactly like the government that did it to them. If people do not protest, and do it in a public and very _obvious_ manner, then how will a government know that whatever action they are doing is not approved of? The average repost this/click this/sign this online petition and even man in the street protest can be ignored. Publicly returning an award, or refusing an award is a very obvious means of protesting that demonstrates how intensely something affects you on a very personal level [because, hey, who doesn’t like getting medals] > [URL=“[http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/](http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/)”] Oh no, I understand why he felt he had to do it. Just that. I think it is futile since the. Israeli PTB are going to be effected sweet fuck all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/5 "2014-08-17T18:19:08Z")
I think that the US public is slowing developing a large contingent of people who are making the comparison, and every bit needs to be done. The Congress seems to be 100 percent supporting the Israeli govt violence and is way behind the public, as usual. http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors\_and\_descendents-letter/ ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/6 "2014-08-17T18:24:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Oh no, I understand why he felt he had to do it. Just that. I think it is futile since the. Israeli PTB are going to be effected sweet fuck all. Maybe it’s more about him being able to live with himself than a grand social media gesture? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/7 "2014-08-17T21:53:53Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Perhaps to point out the issue that the government of the people once persecuted and abused is behaving exactly like the government that did it to them… Remind me again when Jewish terrorist organizations were firing missiles into Germany, or when Israel started invading foreign countries and sending people to extermination camps? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/8 "2014-08-17T22:05:54Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Remind me again when Jewish terrorist organizations were firing missiles into Germany, or when Israel started invading foreign countries and sending people to extermination camps? :rolleyes: Conflating genocidal Israelis with Jews is despicable. We are comparing Israelis to Nazis here. An apt comparison according to many Holocaust survivors and most of the world’s opinion. http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors\_and\_descendents-letter/ Don’t be a propagandist for genocide. Don’t be a Goebbels. What the Nazis did to the Jews is no justification for what Israelis are doing to the Gazans. If you don’t want the world thinking that Israelis are a subset of Jews similar to how Nazis were a subset of Germans, then perhaps start denouncing it instead of obfuscating it. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. The rounding up of Jews and keeping them in Ghettos like in Warsaw and periodically committing murders against all of them when some of them fight back is the exact same crime being committed by Israel against the Gazans. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/9 "2014-08-17T22:52:58Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Conflating genocidal Israelis with Jews is despicable. We are comparing Israelis to Nazis here… And that’s an utterly vile & idiotic comparison. Hamas is the one committing war crimes, not Israel. It’s deeply unfortunate that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields, but it doesn’t change the fact Hamas is the aggressor, Hamas was firing missiles into Israel, and Hamas would jump at the change to engage in genocide. This is nothing like what the Nazis did to the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/10 "2014-08-17T23:17:26Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Hamas is the one committing war crimes, **not Israel**. Bolding mine. I’m way too lazy to take sides here, but this really isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/11 "2014-08-17T23:43:26Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > And that’s an utterly vile & idiotic comparison. Hamas is the one committing war crimes, not Israel. It’s deeply unfortunate that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields, but it doesn’t change the fact Hamas is the aggressor, Hamas was firing missiles into Israel, and Hamas would jump at the change to engage in genocide. This is nothing like what the Nazis did to the Jews. No; that is wrong on all levels. [Here’s Marjorie Cohn](http://jurist.org/forum/2014/08/marjorie-cohn-israel-crimes.php), a professor at the Thomas Jefferson School of Law (who knows a thing or two about this subject) to explain it all for you. [Here is an interview with her](http://scotthorton.org/interviews/2014/08/11/081114-marjorie-cohn/), if you would prefer to learn that way. The definition of “human shield” is very clearly spelled out in the Geneva Accords, and none of Hamas’s actions meet that definition. On top of that, even if they were, that doesn’t give the Israeli Offense Force a blank check to rain death upon Gaza. Stop blaming the victims. Hamas was not the aggressor (and even if they were, that doesn’t change the arch-criminal nature of Israel’s response), they don’t have missiles (only primitive rockets), and they have indicated that they could live with an Israel on the 1967 borders. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/12 "2014-08-18T04:29:24Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > And that’s an utterly vile & idiotic comparison. Hamas is the one committing war crimes, not Israel. It’s deeply unfortunate that Hamas is using Gazans as human shields, but it doesn’t change the fact Hamas is the aggressor, Hamas was firing missiles into Israel, and Hamas would jump at the change to engage in genocide. This is nothing like what the Nazis did to the Jews. What is utterly vile the the murder of the Gazan civilians, not my pointing out how it is fascism, a position even Holocaust survivors take. What is vile, is providing propaganda for the murder of civilians that the Israelis are committing, and their little Goebbelses are committing on the internet. The entire world is disgusted and denouncing it, including a good many Jews. The only thing you find vile are words, while the oppression and murder of a civilian population are excused by _you._ ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/13 "2014-08-18T10:51:45Z")
I think that Mr Zoli’s actions are incredible. He should be applauded for his principled stance and for this gesture of protest. I doubt the Israeli government will do fuck-all about it beyond (possibly) mouthing a few trite words of “regret” but the gesture is still a pointed, deserved slap in the face. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/14 "2014-08-18T11:55:48Z")
If Israel has committed crimes and misdeeds, they are nothing comparable to the crimes and misdeeds of the Nazis. Comparing Israel and the Nazis is despicable (as is comparing most groups and the Nazis). Israel can and should be criticized for mistakes that it makes, but comparing them to Nazis is counterproductive and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/15 "2014-08-18T12:02:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If Israel has committed crimes and misdeeds, they are nothing comparable to the crimes and misdeeds of the Nazis. Comparing Israel and the Nazis is despicable (as is comparing most groups and the Nazis). > > Israel can and should be criticized for mistakes that it makes, but comparing them to Nazis is counterproductive and wrong. I personally don’t care about whether or not Israel is “as bad” as the Nazis. 2,000 dead is still 2,000 dead. If anyone wants to say that “Hey, 2,000 isn’t as bad as 6 million” then I’m not going to dispute the numbers, but I can still point out that Israel’s actions are despicable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/16 "2014-08-18T12:10:22Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > I personally don’t care about whether or not Israel is “as bad” as the Nazis. 2,000 dead is still 2,000 dead. If anyone wants to say that “Hey, 2,000 isn’t as bad as 6 million” then I’m not going to dispute the numbers, but I can still point out that Israel’s actions are despicable. Feel free to point out despicable actions. But very, very few groups and regimes in recent human history were comparable to the Nazis. There’s no way Israel qualifies, especially considering the dozens of countries that have done way, way worse stuff than Israel recently (including, perhaps, the United States). I put forward that the invasion of Iraq caused more suffering to more people than Israel’s recent conflicts in Gaza and the Palestinian territories. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/17 "2014-08-18T12:15:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Feel free to point out despicable actions. But very, very few groups and regimes in recent human history were comparable to the Nazis. There’s no way Israel qualifies, especially considering the dozens of countries that have done way, way worse stuff than Israel recently (including, perhaps, the United States). I put forward that the invasion of Iraq caused more suffering to more people than Israel’s recent conflicts in Gaza and the Palestinian territories. Fair enough. I personally feel that comparisons to the Nazis are pointless. Israel’s crimes are bad enough on their own, and many people agree with Mr Zoli’s point that Israel has gone from a nation of victims to a nation of oppressors. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/18 "2014-08-18T12:25:25Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > We are comparing Israelis to Nazis here We should know that this grotesquely inapt comparison insults the victims of Naziism, dilutes the memory of the real thing, hardens extremist opinion on both sides and does nothing to promote peace. Other than that, have fun. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/19 "2014-08-18T14:32:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Conflating genocidal Israelis with Jews is despicable. We are comparing Israelis to Nazis here. An apt comparison according to many Holocaust survivors and most of the world’s opinion. > > http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors\_and\_descendents-letter/ > > Don’t be a propagandist for genocide. Don’t be a Goebbels. What the Nazis did to the Jews is no justification for what Israelis are doing to the Gazans. If you don’t want the world thinking that Israelis are a subset of Jews similar to how Nazis were a subset of Germans, then perhaps start denouncing it instead of obfuscating it. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. The rounding up of Jews and keeping them in Ghettos like in Warsaw and periodically committing murders against all of them when some of them fight back is the exact same crime being committed by Israel against the Gazans. This is why ordinary Jews like myself tend to ignore much of the world’s criticism of Israel. Because it is so ridiculously over the top that is often impossible to take seriously. You might want to remember that you need to win over the Jewish street as well as the Islamic one. This sort of bullshit is not how you get there. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > We should know that this grotesquely inapt comparison insults the victims of Naziism, dilutes the memory of the real thing, hardens extremist opinion on both sides and does nothing to promote peace. > > Other than that, have fun. Or what he said. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/20 "2014-08-18T17:01:01Z")
Then why does this Auschwitz survivor make the same comparison? Monsters pretend that the comparison is the offense, when the offense is bottling up families in the Gaza ghetto and then periodically slaughtering them. You’re offended at the comparison? You invoke the offense of Holocaust survivors to be offended at the comparison? There are dead people here, people made to live in squalor for decades and then when some criminals among them act violently all of them are subject to being slaughtered in their homes. And the US government, through our taxes, pays for all this. It’s monstrous and it is no different than the Nazis and the Warsaw Ghetto. You object or are offended at the comparison? Oh my! Your fascist discomfort at an argument is meaningless in the face of the thousands of dead that is the concentration camp that is Gaza. That is a crime against humanity, your uncomfortable offense will fade in 10 minutes as you go about your fascist day supporting with your tax dollars the fascist oppression in Gaza. > **[Polish-Jewish sociologist compares West Bank separation fence to Warsaw...](https://www.haaretz.com/2011-09-01/ty-article/polish-jewish-sociologist-compares-west-bank-separation-fence-to-warsaw-ghetto-walls/0000017f-deda-db5a-a57f-defa9ead0000)** > > Sygmunt Bauman says Israel 'terrified of peace' and 'taking advantage of the Holocaust to legitimize unconscionable acts,' in interview with Polish weekly 'Politika.' This is the moral issue of our time. You can sit on the sidelines and have no opinion, or you can review the moral situation and take a position: that the people of Gaza are inherently sub-human, or that they are oppressed in violation of human rights. Either way, if you are a US citizen that pays taxes, you are paying for it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=2)