# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/261 "2014-08-25T20:49:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I understand it, … You don’t understand “it” or me. That might be because you insist all information come in the form of print. We have another poster who insist that a Pulitzer prize sharing journalist, respected around the world, cannot be considered credible when he puts his observations into print. We have yet other posters who insist that everyone on the other side of the argument is a liar. Have any of us lived in Gaza? I sure haven’t and sure as hell wouldn’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/262 "2014-08-25T20:57:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Ultimately, it would be nice if every single person is judged only on his own actions and not those of his peers or group, but I don’t think anyone is that saintly to do so. We all take into account group behavior if you are reacting to an individual member of that group, I think its pretty impossible not to live by that heuristic. For many people who don’t know any Jews personally, they cannot but identify Israel as a model of Jewish behavior. And like it or not, Israel doesn’t just style itself as some random country out in the desert, it loudly proclaims itself as Jewish as if to serve as a model of Jewish identity, that’s why its partly their fault. They can stop and totally declare themselves secular, declare their politics to be practical, and their conflicts with the Palestinians to be terrestrial, but if they seek to cloak themselves in their religion, then its not wrong that some people take them at their word. Sounds like a bunch of excuses for bigotry to me. > [@](#): > > And nobody’s blaming “all” Muslims for 9/11, but it would be accurate to say that some Muslims outside of those 19 hijackers and Al-Qaeda bear some responsibility. That amount and degree varies depending on how you feel about Muslims, but I would bet anything that at least one Muslim unaffiliated with the terrorists hold some degree of responsibility. Just as I would say that there are Jews not affiliated with Israel that nevertheless condone and promote its actions. Again, you are trying to squash the part of it that is anti-semetic and biased, which is fine, but denying even an infinitesimal link makes you seem crazy. I’m not the one making excuses for bigots, though. Call that “crazy” if you like. > [@](#): > > You may not want to hear this but there are factors that throw Israel’s legitimacy into question. Yes, of course you’ll ask as if ignorant “What factors?” I’m sure your knowledge of ME politics can list a few, but I’m not going to do so because then we’ll just get into a line by line debate on which factors are legitimate. All you have to accept is that Israel, unlike most other countries, is being assailed by both arms and politics, and 70 years later there’s something to be said about many of its neighbors not finding it legitimate. Despite what some people might feel about Turkey, nobody’s going to question that its legitimate. Israel’s kinda in its own category. Therefore they shouldn’t expect to be treated like others. > > The two of you can talk until you’re blue in the face about why people should or should not see Israel as any different. But it won’t change the reality that it is different. Accept that and move on, or be honest with yourselves and admit you’re only doing it because you’re afraid the arguments of the bigots will eventually become reality In what way will the “arguments of the bigots” “eventually become reality”? I honestly have no idea what you are getting at there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/263 "2014-08-25T21:32:09Z")
The world certainly has its share of ignorant people with their preconceived notions rather than being occupied only by informed, educated people who withhold judgment until all the facts are in. That and many people operate out of self-interest. (Not to be confused with an economists’ notion of informed self-interest.) We live in the world and have to deal with that. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/264 "2014-08-25T21:32:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sounds like a bunch of excuses for bigotry to me. I don’t think you are capable of honestly saying that you never take your evaluations of a group into account when judging a single individual from that group > [@Malthus](#): > > In what way will the “arguments of the bigots” “eventually become reality”? I honestly have no idea what you are getting at there. Sometimes opinions are influenced by lies. Simply stating something is a lie will not stop people from believing or acting upon those lies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/265 "2014-08-25T22:28:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You don’t understand “it” or me. That might be because you insist all information come in the form of print. :rolleyes: You keep telling yourself that, hoss; it’s sure to serve both you and your causes well in life. With your “YOU DON’T KNOW ME!” refrain, check into Jerry Springer; maybe he’s got a spot free. Or, y’know, you could support what you’re saying with reputable cites, not asking people to watch some crackpot video you’ve turned up. Of course, that’s a lot more work, and if the YOU DON’T KNOW ME route is satisfying enough, I recommend you continue down that course. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/266 "2014-08-25T23:09:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :rolleyes: You keep telling yourself that, hoss; it’s sure to serve both you and your causes well in life. With your “YOU DON’T KNOW ME!” refrain, check into Jerry Springer; maybe he’s got a spot free. > > Or, y’know, you could support what you’re saying with reputable cites, not asking people to watch some crackpot video you’ve turned up. Of course, that’s a lot more work, and if the YOU DON’T KNOW ME route is satisfying enough, I recommend you continue down that course. Tell me more about this Mr. Springer you recommend. Is he in print and not a crackpot? Dr. Meyer was an Auschwitz survivor and renowned physicist. You refused to consider his talks, and dismiss him as disreputable and a crackpot. That says more about you than him. Mr. Hedges is a widely respected reporter, and neither disreputable, nor a crackpot. That says more about you than him. Prof. Cohn is a nationally respected professor of law and in no sense disreputable, nor a crackpot. That says more about you than him. When you attack \*ad hominem \* the proponents of a position on the basis of being crackpots (or disreputable) without providing any evidence of either, in civilized debate, that is a fallacy of fatal proportions to your position. It is a non-response and it concedes the dispute. That is what you have done. You are free to make your own judgments about the events of the world the people who have witnessed them. I am free to make my own judgments about people who dismiss the witnesses to genocide, and I do. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/267 "2014-08-25T23:52:04Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Mr. Hedges report is reliable evidence, and you pretend, it is of zero value and assert the opposite as fact. Mr. Hedges report is a vague claim made without any reference to any specific date or location that he then claims that he has witnessed multiple times even though not one person has ever made the same claim. I say that he is unpersuasive. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You demand a corroborating witness for that event. That is a second piece of evidence of another event that their might not be evidence of. There are more reports of alien abductions and bigfoot sighting each year than there have been of IDF troops machine gunning children at close range since the first Intifada and none of the other reports match the claim that Hedges makes. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Mr. Hedges is a reliable reporter, as you concede. Actually, I only “concede” that I knew no specifics about Mr. Hedges. **Ibn Warraq** has now provided a bit of evidence that challenges any claims of honesty in regard to his writing. Your persistent reference to his Pulitzer Prize is an odd claim, as though having a Pulitzer bestows accuracy on one’s work. That would come as a surprise to the editors, publishers, and readers of Walter Duranty and Janet Cooke. However, since you place such trust in that award, I have been compelled to go look up Mr. Hedges’s works. He received his Pulitzer as part of a team of reporters, not for an individual story he wrote. It later came to light that at least two of the stories that he contributed to the body of work on which his award was based were fabricated. (There is no evidence that he invented them, himself, but he made no effort to actually check his sources and he printed the lies.) > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Your assertion that it didn’t happen is made by you, and as far as I can tell, it isn’t based on eyewitness testimony, but a method of thinking that makes a conclusive presumption at the start and refuses to consider any evidence to the contrary because it isn’t fair. You have just described your views, not mine. I have looked for corroborating evidence for his stories and found not a single report to support his claim. On the other hand, because his story, (that lacks any outside support), supports your need to demonize Israel, you accept it uncritically. Your claim is based on nothing but hatred. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You then, when I within a hour of internet searching come up with similar instances, attempt to distinguish them, not as an open mind would in looking for new information, but in attacking credibility of some witnesses and noting that not each one is in fact identical. The fact that they are not identical is exactly the point. I am well aware that members of the IDF have either committed crimes or overreacted, (depending on whose story one believes), but you repeatedly asserted that members of the IDF machine gunned children after taunting them and neither you nor I can find even a single incident (much less multiple events) outside the vague claims of Hedges that indicates that it ever happened. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Tens and tens of thousands die in Gaza of violence over the decades and you offer and copiously defend your position that a genocide is not taking place, slurring the credibility and character of all the witnesses. I have slurred no one’s credibility, although I have questioned that of Hedges. I have not even addressed the issue of genocide, much less made a claim that it is not happening. I think you have called that “making it up” when you referred to other posters. On the other hand, your blind hatred certainly has called into question your judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/268 "2014-08-26T00:31:15Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Tell me more about this Mr. Springer you recommend. Is he in print and not a crackpot? In all your inanities, I’ve let slide the business about how I refuse to consider things not in print. Turns out I left some room for ambiguity when I said, > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If your argument cannot be made in print, I’m not going to engage it. Stupid passive voice. Let’s try this again: if your argument cannot be made BY YOU in print, I’m not going to engage it. That is, this is a print board. I’m not going to go on a whackalink hunt for you, as others have done, showing how all your links aren’t as you represent them. This is something I do in my spare moments. I’m not going to watch videos you post, whether they’re crackpots (as I suspect, given the overall quality of your arguments) or Nobel fucking Prize winners, or crackpot Nobel fucking Prize winners. Make your argument here, with facts, and back it up with specific references to cites, as board culture and tradition recommend, and I’ll engage you–AS I HAVE DONE WHEN YOU’VE DONE THIS. You’ve notably ignored me when I respond substantively to you. But you may find it easier to keep sneering about how I won’t watch your Glorious Youtube Links, which is of course your prerogative. That is, after all, much easier than responding to questions about Geneva Conventions, about the lack of specificity in the textual cites you offer, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/269 "2014-08-26T00:48:50Z")
Originally, you said Hedges had an excellent reputation. Now, when one of the usual libelers of people critical of reporting unfavorable things about Israel comes up with the usual sort of scurrilous insults to his character, you decide to change your mind. You say you question my judgment. So be it. I’d be offended if you thought I judged things the way you do. Yours always interprets away any criminal activity of the government of Israel by attacking the credibility and judgment of others, all others, respected or unknown. So what do I think of your judgment? I don’t respect it. In fact, I’m in contempt of it because of the way you dismiss anything that doesn’t agree with you and join in the piling on of the libeling. I want to make clear, I’m criticizing your judgment, not you personally. First you assert that no such activity as Hedges had reported, but you did not yet know about existed. You answered my question as to whether your “no it is not” referred to legality or the machine gunning by saying the machine gunning never happened.You had and have no evidence to prove that it didn’t except a bizarre belief that the IDF couldn’t possibly do such a thing, putting aside everything human beings know about armed conflict and atrocities. You choose the believe the libels of someone whose consistent record on the SDMB is to libel people critical of Israel. When confronted with the Hedges report, you conceded (which you now take back) that he was generally reliable, but he was wrong here (not maybe he was wrong, but wrong) due to poor observing. When the poster you mention collects all the libels around the internet about Mr. Hedges, collected for the people who have been embarrassed by his reporting, you fully credit that, even though it is, on its face motivated to smear. I put in several reports of similar incidents, and you poo-poo each one as not being exactly the same or corroborated. Even though they are mostly the same. No such report is going to be corroborated by anyone you would ever put credence in because if they corroborated, you would put the in your unreliable column as you always do. No report from a family or non-famous witnesses would get the slightest credence from you, as we have seen you dismiss them. You then dismiss Mr. Hedges Pulitzer credentials as meaningless. It is not a stamp of truth, but it is stamp of professional excellence, something the people libeling Mr. Hedges don’t have. There is a reason that I have not responded in years to the poster you have referred to. He is a one sided advocate and a libeler on behalf of Israel. Israel has blockaded the citizens of Gaza. Israel has objected to any nation recognizing a government in Gaza. Israel collectively punishes in Gaza, destroying whole buildings to get to one person. Israel shoots at ambulances. Israel bulldozes homes and protestors. Israel affords none of the people killed or deprived of property any kind of trial. Israel bulldozes the homes of relatives of suspected terrorists without trial. Israeli attacks kill thousands upon thousands. Israel blames this on an organization they label as criminal (Hamas), and then claims that Hamas is supported by the people and properly elected, but refuses to recognize as a government and insists, apparently correctly, that no other government in the world should recognize it as a real government. Based on the criminal tying of Hamas to the people, Israel bombs the people. And you deny this is genocide. That is your right. You’ve made clear my judgment means nothing to you, but I judge you to be someone who is only an advocate in an argument, not someone open to being persuaded. You’ve taken the side of the rich and powerful and the authoritarian oppressors. History shows this is usually the profitable and winning side. You’ve denied genocide here, I want to make clear that I consider that no different than a Holocaust denier except that in this case there are thousands of prospective deaths and that Holocaust deniers are usually deeply mentally disturbed. You are clearly not suffering from mental illness. I call it willful blindness. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/270 "2014-08-26T00:52:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have not even addressed the issue of genocide, much less made a claim that it is not happening. I think you have called that “making it up” when you referred to other posters. Well then address it. I think you do address the issue when you refuse to credit reports of people being killed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/271 "2014-08-26T01:01:40Z")
When Henk Zanoli returned his Holocaust medal to the Israeli embassy at The Hague with the letter saying that he could no longer hold the honor, he wasn’t saying his actions were dishonorable, he wasn’t regretting saving the girl, as some here have suggested, he returned an affiliation because the deaths of his in-laws demonstrated that the giver of the honor was no longer fit to itself with his heroism in the Holocaust, defying the Nazis at the risk to the lives of his whole family. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/272 "2014-08-26T01:26:25Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > When Henk Zanoli returned his Holocaust medal to the Israeli embassy at The Hague with the letter saying that he could no longer hold the honor, he wasn’t saying his actions were dishonorable, he wasn’t regretting saving the girl, as some here have suggested, he returned an affiliation because the deaths of his in-laws demonstrated that the giver of the honor was no longer fit to itself with his heroism in the Holocaust, defying the Nazis at the risk to the lives of his whole family. This post is, I think, accurate in every particular, and I encourage you to make more like it. For folks interested, the complete text of his letter can be read [here](http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.611272). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/273 "2014-08-26T02:16:42Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Originally, you said Hedges had an excellent reputation. Now, when one of the usual libelers of people critical of reporting unfavorable things about Israel comes up with the usual sort of scurrilous insults to his character, you decide to change your mind. This is the sort of thing that you accused others of “making up.” [All I said was that he](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17666535#post17666535) “has not previously made truly outlandish claims.” You interpreted that, incorrectly, as saying that he had “an excellent reputation.” In that same comment, I noted that regardless of the lack of previous outlandish comments, his current claim called into question his accuracy. Your truly weird interpretation of my comment further calls into question your judgment. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You say you question my judgment. So be it. I’d be offended if you thought I judged things the way you do. Yours always interprets away any criminal activity of the government of Israel by attacking the credibility and judgment of others, all others, respected or unknown. You have no basis, (besides prejudiced opinions), to make this claim. I have noted several incidents that might have been either accidental or criminal. I have refrained from making any judgment on the overall activity of Israel because I have wanted to discover the accuracy on one single claim that you have repeated. Making claims about how I “always interpret” anything has no basis in reality, since you have not examined all my claims regarding Israel. What was it you said earlier? “You are making things up”? > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > First you assert that no such activity as Hedges had reported, but you did not yet know about existed. You answered my question as to whether your “no it is not” referred to legality or the machine gunning by saying the machine gunning never happened.You had and have no evidence to prove that it didn’t except a bizarre belief that the IDF couldn’t possibly do such a thing, putting aside everything human beings know about armed conflict and atrocities. More poor logic and wild beliefs. Before I posted “No. It did not.” I first made a significant search of the internet, both news sources and Palestinian blogs, looking for any record of such an event. Finding none, I responded that the event did not occur or it would have been reported. I made no judgment based on an inability to conceive of the IDF doing such a thing. That is you, again, “Making things up.” > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You choose the believe the libels of someone whose consistent record on the SDMB is to libel people critical of Israel. When confronted with the Hedges report, you conceded (which you now take back) that he was generally reliable, but he was wrong here (not maybe he was wrong, but wrong) due to poor observing. I never said he was reliable. I said that lacking a history of truly outlandish comments, I could see how you could find him credible. I already found his story unbelievable because, as I have pointed out throughout this discussion, it is utterly unbelievable that he alone would report on such an event–particularly with his odd claim that he had witnessed it multiple times. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > When the poster you mention collects all the libels around the internet about Mr. Hedges, collected for the people who have been embarrassed by his reporting, you fully credit that, even though it is, on its face motivated to smear. Again, you leap to false conclusions based on your own beliefs, not facts. **Ibn Warraq** ’s link indicated, (with evidence), that Hedges had been caught plagiarizing. After that, I went out and found my own sources that noted that he was only a member of a team that won a Pulitzer and that two stories that he wrote in the series had been fabricated. (And I have still refrained from accusing him of dishonesty, only sloppy reporting in those cases.) > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I put in several reports of similar incidents, and you poo-poo each one as not being exactly the same or corroborated. Even though they are mostly the same. No such report is going to be corroborated by anyone you would ever put credence in because if they corroborated, you would put the in your unreliable column as you always do. No report from a family or non-famous witnesses would get the slightest credence from you, as we have seen you dismiss them. More with “making things up.” I already pointed out that the only reason I have any interest in this story is to discover the single fact of your claim that the IDF taunted children into throwing stones, only to machine gun them for reacting in that way. I have never claimed that the IDF is guilt free and you have no idea how I would react to evidence that IDF taunted children into throwing stones, only to machine gun them for reacting in that way, because you have spectacularly failed to provide any evidence of any such event. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You then dismiss Mr. Hedges Pulitzer credentials as meaningless. It is not a stamp of truth, but it is stamp of professional excellence, something the people libeling Mr. Hedges don’t have. Such “stamp of excellence,” however, is much weakened when it turns out he was just one of a group and that his contributions to the group effort have already been shown to be false. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > There is a reason that I have not responded in years to the poster you have referred to. He is a one sided advocate and a libeler on behalf of Israel. Just as you are a one-sided opponent and libeler **of** Israel. \*… shrug … \* > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You’ve denied genocide here, . . . Actually, I have not made any such claim. This is the second time you have made that accusation when no such statement appears in my posts. Perhaps you should actually read the posts of posters with whom you are arguing rather than making wild accusations that can be shown to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/274 "2014-08-26T02:21:44Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well then address it. I think you do address the issue when you refuse to credit reports of people being killed. I have no interest in addressing your monomaniacal beliefs. I was looking for a factual answer to a specific question. I have that answer and you have established that my conclusion is correct with your refusal to actually address the point other than to insist that one man’s word about an event that he claims to have witnessed multiple times is somehow more accurate that the utter failure of anyone else to have ever reported the same event. I have not refused to credit reports of people being killed. I have refused to accept a specific claim by one person that a specific type of action occurred multiple times without a single other person ever reporting it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/275 "2014-08-26T05:54:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have refused to accept a specific claim by one person that a specific type of action occurred multiple times without a single other person ever reporting it. As noted, others have reported it. You don’t accept the claim of Mr. Hedges and never did, and never considered doing so. Your posting makes that really clear. Thousands of Palestinians have died in Gaza during the past decades. [http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/1...beach\_new\_york](http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/1...beach_new_york) Not a similar enough atrocity for you to credit Hedges from [DemocracyNow.org](http://DemocracyNow.org). > [@](#): > > JUAN GONZÁLEZ: A five-hour humanitarian truce has just ended in Gaza. The break was requested by the United Nations to allow residents of the Gaza Strip to gather supplies and repair damage following 10 days of attacks by Israel. The death toll in Gaza has reached at least 227, mostly civilians. One Israeli has died since the attack began. There are reports today of a new ceasefire agreement between Israel and Gaza, but details remain unclear. > > AMY GOODMAN: On Wednesday, an Israeli gunboat shelled a beach, killing four boys who were playing there. The boys were all between the ages of nine and 11 and from the same extended family. Seven other adults and children were wounded in the strike. The scene was witnessed by a number of international journalists, including France 24 correspondent Gallagher Fenwick. > > ``` > GALLAGHER FENWICK: We witnessed the incident. The first strike occurred, and we went out onto our balcony. You have to understand that this happened right in front of the hotels on the Gaza beachfront where most of the international media are staying, so there were very many witnesses of this incident. As I mentioned, there was a first very loud strike that hit a structure that is right on the Gaza port. So, many people looking out onto there. And after that first strike happened, we saw four very young children running away from the point of impact on a completely empty beach, so very clearly visible from a distance. And that’s why—that’s when, excuse me, there was a second strike that obviously hit the other children, so leaving four children dead on that beach—a very shocking incident given that, again, these children were clearly simply playing around and were very, very clearly visible from a distance. > > ``` Here you disdains amnesty international: [http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/trigg...ank-2014-02-27](http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/trigg...ank-2014-02-27) > [@](#): > > In all cases examined by Amnesty International, Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers did not appear to be posing a direct and immediate threat to life. In some, there is evidence that they were victims of wilful killings, which would amount to war crimes. > > “The report presents a body of evidence that shows a harrowing pattern of unlawful killings and unwarranted injuries of Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces in the West Bank,” said Philip Luther, Middle East and North Africa Director at Amnesty International. > > “The frequency and persistence of arbitrary and abusive force against peaceful protesters in the West Bank by Israeli soldiers and police officers – and the impunity enjoyed by perpetrators – suggests that it is carried out as a matter of policy.” > > Deaths and injuries > > Amnesty International has documented the killings of 22 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank last year, at least 14 of which were in the context of protests. Most were young adults under the age of 25. At least four were children. Here is a video of a young man being murdered as he walks along at about 46 to 50 seconds and another at 1:25 to 1:30 seconds walking in the opposite direction, no weapon in hand [http://mondoweiss.net/2014/05/palest](http://mondoweiss.net/2014/05/palest)…-soldiers.html These two boys were murdered walking along with their hands at their sides. Perhaps you can tell us why they were executed without trial with troops right there. An eyewitness does. > **[Did Israeli troops deliberately provoke boy, only to shoot him in the](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/did-israeli-troops-deliberately-provoke-boy-only-to-shoot-him-in-the-back-8454650.html)** > > On Monday Samir was shot by the IDF near his home in the West Bank. Israel says he was trying to invade its territory. But the boy's family claim the truth is much more sinister The Independent publishes a news story identical to that of Hedges. You conclude from this that Hedges cannot be credited. > [@](#): > > Samir’s family and other villagers said the IDF regularly uses loudhailers to taunt children at the Budrus Secondary School, which overlooks the area where Samir was killed. [http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...2571EA00536864](http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...2571EA00536864) UNISPAL > [@](#): > > The six incidents were: > > ``` > On May 30, around 1 a.m., Israeli artillery fired on paramedics in the northern town of Bait Lahiya as they were collecting casualties. One paramedic was injured. Video footage of this incident recorded the sound and detonation of an incoming shell that wounded the paramedic. The footage did not include any audio or video indication of ongoing fighting between Israeli forces and these or other armed Palestinians. > On July 12, ambulance paramedics came under Israeli gunfire as they collected casualties in al-Qarrara, southern Gaza Strip, in the early afternoon. > On July 19, around 1 a.m. Israeli forces opened fire at the location where a paramedic had just stepped down from an ambulance to collect a casualty in Maghazi Refugee Camp. > In a second incident on the morning of July 19, a drone-fired missile landed close to and gravely wounded a driver who was part of a convoy of three ambulances in Maghazi Refugee Camp that was collecting injured persons from an Israeli strike a short while earlier. The bomb also wounded another paramedic less seriously. > On July 20, shortly after noontime, a shell that was apparently launched from a ship hit an ambulance en route to collect a casualty on the Sea Road south of Gaza City. > In a second incident on July 20, in the evening, a drone-fired missile struck a building near two clearly marked ambulances on the southern edge of Maghazi Refugee Camp, wounding to a driver and paramedic. > > ``` > > - See more at: [http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/088E7C424B63CC19852571EA00536864#sthash.SShB1dph.dpuf](http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/088E7C424B63CC19852571EA00536864#sthash.SShB1dph.dpuf) > **[404 | ZeroHedge](https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...geting-civilia)** > > ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero links to an Israeli soldier admitting civilian targeting [Israel Defense Forces soldiers condemn destruction of Gaza - World Socialist Web Site](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/06/idfs-a06.html) > [@](#): > > As the bloodbath continued in Gaza last week, a member of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), Eran Efrati, exposed on social media classified information concerning the tactics and targets of the devastating attacks on the Palestinian people who are trapped in the war zone. He explicitly stated that his superiors encouraged IDF soldiers to take revenge on Palestinian civilians for their fallen comrades. > > Efrati, a company sergeant, posted to his Facebook page on Tuesday, July 29 that Palestinian civilians killed during the Shuja’iyya massacre of July 20 were deliberately targeted in order to “punish” the population for the killing of seven Israeli soldiers serving in the Golani Brigade by sniper fire. > > “The official command that was handed down to the soldiers in Shujaiyya was to capture Palestinian homes as outposts,” Efrati wrote. “From these posts, the soldiers drew an imaginary red line, and amongst themselves decided to shoot to death anyone who crosses it. Anyone crossing the line was defined as a threat to their outposts, and was thus deemed a legitimate target.” Eran Efrati is now, of course, libeled for his revealing this information about the deliberate targeting of civilians for shooting in retaliation.[http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-soldier-and-the-refusenik-a-case-study-in-psychopathic-self-abhorrence/](http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-soldier-and-the-refusenik-a-case-study-in-psychopathic-self-abhorrence/) that is really accusing him of being anti-Semitic and self-hating and psychotic. Attacking credibility just as you and others have done to Dr. Meyer and Mr. Hedges in this thread. This soldier has posted this on his Facebook page (not linked) and was then arrested for doing so. [Israeli Army Whistle-Blower Gets Arrested After Posting ‘Israeli Troops Killed Gaza Civilians in Revenge’ on Facebook · Global Voices](http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/08/03/israeli-army-whistle-blower-leaks-account-of-revenge-attacks-against-civilians-by-israeli-troops-in-gazas-shujaiyya/) Here is a talk by Efrati [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8) his grandmother was an Auschwitz survivor and he credits her with his speaking out and comparing what he saw with the Nazis. So everyone else in the world is mistaken, lying, crazy, self-hating and it is okay to shoot four children playing on the beach, to taunt children near the wire and shoot them and otherwise. You call me mono-maniacal and other names and whatever else comes to your mind. I am honored to earn whatever form of denigration or disrespect that comes from you. I accuse you of deliberately and intentionally being willfully blind to evidence of genocide. Minimizing reports of crimes against humanity, raising spurious distinctions, smearing the names of witnesses to murders and generally dismissing the unnamed witnesses to murders. Of minimizing the genocide of the Palestinian people. Of being an advocate to ignoring the evidence of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/276 "2014-08-26T11:51:44Z")
> **[An Open Letter to William Hague from Aunty Mindy](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/an-open-letter-to-william-hague-by-aunty-mindy/)** > > From the blog of Daniel Rose at The Times of Israel The daughter of a survivor speaks eloquently. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/277 "2014-08-26T12:46:08Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t think you are capable of honestly saying that you never take your evaluations of a group into account when judging a single individual from that group The point you are missing is that “Israelis” and “Jews” _aren’t the same group_. I deny that others are “incapable” of making this distinction. Which seems a fairly obvious one to me. > [@](#): > > Sometimes opinions are influenced by lies. Simply stating something is a lie will not stop people from believing or acting upon those lies. What “acts” do you expect? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/278 "2014-08-26T15:30:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The point you are missing is that “Israelis” and “Jews” _aren’t the same group_. There is a large enough overlap between the two to conflate them in the minds of many normal people. Not everyone who holds that the two are relatively the same is bigoted. Some are, others are misinformed, and still others weigh the similarities more than the differences. You think you address the first two groups only. That’s your error > [@Malthus](#): > > I deny that others are “incapable” of making this distinction. Which seems a fairly obvious one to me. Are you saying that everyone who is not bigoted judges every individual from a group on his own merits and is not influenced by the group at all? Everyone? In every instance? > [@Malthus](#): > > What “acts” do you expect? Speaking out against Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, for one. You strike me as someone who thinks that if everyone can just get to the REAL TRUTH, then surely they would be for completely for Israel, as if your beliefs are so unassailable that no true scotsman can consider it and not believe it totally. There are plenty of non-biased people who do not support Israel to the degree that you’re defending them and still understand the issues. Our disgust at Israel’s actions do not stem from ignorance. But the whole anti-semitic issue is something fraught with thousands of years of baggage, so much that its difficult to truly separate an honestly held belief from one of bigoted delusion. You’re free to believe where my beliefs come from, all I can tell you is that you’re wrong ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/279 "2014-08-26T15:42:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > There is a large enough overlap between the two to conflate them in the minds of many normal people. Not everyone who holds that the two are relatively the same is bigoted. Some are, others are misinformed, and still others weigh the similarities more than the differences. You think you address the first two groups only. That’s your error “Still others weigh the similarities more than the differences”? What does that even mean? Are you claiming it is _justified_ for this “third group” to conflate Jews and Israelis? > [@](#): > > Are you saying that everyone who is not bigoted judges every individual from a group on his own merits and is not influenced by the group at all? Everyone? In every instance? No. I am saying that many ordinary people have no problems knowing that Jews and Israelis are not the same thing. > [@](#): > > Speaking out against Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, for one. You strike me as someone who thinks that if everyone can just get to the REAL TRUTH, then surely they would be for completely for Israel, as if your beliefs are so unassailable that no true scotsman can consider it and not believe it totally. There are plenty of non-biased people who do not support Israel to the degree that you’re defending them and still understand the issues. Our disgust at Israel’s actions do not stem from ignorance. But the whole anti-semitic issue is something fraught with thousands of years of baggage, so much that its difficult to truly separate an honestly held belief from one of bigoted delusion. You’re free to believe where my beliefs come from, all I can tell you is that you’re wrong I have said nothing whatsoever about your beliefs, unless they are that Jews and Israelis are the same. If that is your “belief”, and I have no idea if it is, then it is factually wrong. If you are unable to accept that, then you are being wilfully ignorant. I have no idea whether that wilful ignorance (should it exist) stems from bigotry or some other source. As for “speaking out against Israel’s treatment of Palestinians”, I have no problems with that, assuming it is reality-based. Indeed, in many ways, Israel falls short of what it should do in respect of its treatrment of Palestinians, and I’ve “spoken out” about that myself. Just off the top: (1) Israel’s use of current weakness and isolation of the PA to continue its policy of grabbing land in the WB for settlements is outright theft; and (2) Within Israel, the Israeli government’s treatment of the Arab Israeli minority is often racist and sub-par - for example, in providing services such as education. The difference is that I hardly think Israel is _unique_ in having such problems and iniquities. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/280 "2014-08-26T16:10:03Z")
**The Second Stone** , if you’d like to continue your discussion of **tom~**'s character, there’s a [venue all ready for you](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=732139). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=15)