# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/341 "2014-08-30T14:35:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That last is an interesting choice of words. > > How old is “Palestinian culture” and how is “Palestinian culture” distinct from say Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian or Iraqi culture? > > Thanks in advance for your response. Given the evolving nature of cultures that’s a question without an answer. Unless it’s an isolated group of people most cultures change rapidly over a short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/342 "2014-09-05T19:14:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You do realize just how many groups who’s cause you seem to be championing this applies to don’t you? > > For that matter, It’s quite odd since you’ve specifically said you found Kawukji’s attempt to “kick the Jews into the Sea” to be “honorable” and thought it was wrong that the Jews beat him back, though you presumably are glad the Jews didn’t get exterminated. > > If you think an avowed Nazi like Kawukji can be “honorable” when attempting to slaughter Jews, why he surprised at people thinking it’s “honorable” for the Jews to fight back? Wait. What? Can you cite to a post where I even mention Qawukji? BTW: Oppression/=fighting back. oppression=oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/343 "2014-09-05T20:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW: Oppression/=fighting back. oppression=oppression. Very true. Thus when Israel was attacked in 1948, they were not oppressing the people who attacked her. Likewise in 1967 and 1973 and 2014. So none of Israel’s territory is a result of her oppressing anyone. I am glad we agree. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/344 "2014-09-06T00:53:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait. What? Can you cite to a post where I even mention Qawukji? You forgot that you defended his attempt to exterminate the Palestinian Jews in 1948 and argued that it “was not immoral”?:dubious: > [@](#): > > They only attacked because the Zionists declared its independence as a Jewish state. It was not an unprovoked attack and it was not a war of conquest and it was not immoral. The Zionists had no more right to the land than the Palestinians and frankly I think they had a lot less right to it. Incidentally your claim that the ALA wasn’t engaged in “a war of conquest” and they only did it because the Jews accepted the UN Participation Plan is demonstrably false. Palestinian Arab militants had been attacking and slaughtering Jewish civilians for decades before this and Kawukji and his men never pretended their goal wasn’t to pile up mountains of Jewish corpses. You have heard of the Arab revolt haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/345 "2014-09-06T01:34:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You forgot that you defended his attempt to exterminate the Palestinian Jews in 1948 and argued that it “was not immoral”?:dubious: > > Incidentally your claim that the ALA wasn’t engaged in “a war of conquest” and they only did it because the Jews accepted the UN Participation Plan is demonstrably false. > > Palestinian Arab militants had been attacking and slaughtering Jewish civilians for decades before this and Kawukji and his men never pretended their goal wasn’t to pile up mountains of Jewish corpses. > > You have heard of the Arab revolt haven’t you? I thought I should make it clear that while you did very clearly and explicitly defend Kawukji’s attempt to “push the Jews into the sea” I don’t mean to imply that you wanted it to happen and suspect that you may not have understood the implications of your comment. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/346 "2014-09-23T03:09:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You forgot that you defended his attempt to exterminate the Palestinian Jews in 1948 and argued that it “was not immoral”?:dubious: Thats still not a cite. Because you brought up a nazi and said I supported him. But a cite to what you just said right there would be sufficient I suppose. Where do I support the extermination of Jews in 1948? Or are you saying that I support the extermination of Jews in 1948 because I think the invasion of Israel was not immoral? You are making a few logical leaps to get to your conclusions without telling anyone about the logical leaps you are making. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/347 "2014-09-23T03:10:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Very true. Thus when Israel was attacked in 1948, they were not oppressing the people who attacked her. Likewise in 1967 and 1973 and 2014. > > So none of Israel’s territory is a result of her oppressing anyone. I am glad we agree. > > Regards, > Shodan Nope thats theft and oppression. I know it must sting that even folks that saved jews during the holocaust want to having nothing to do with israel but remember, these guys generally saved jews because they had a conscience and some of them kept that conscience even after they got a medal. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/348 "2014-09-23T03:12:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I thought I should make it clear that while you did very clearly and explicitly defend Kawukji’s attempt to “push the Jews into the sea” I don’t mean to imply that you wanted it to happen and suspect that you may not have understood the implications of your comment. Then you are saying that i said things that I didn’t say. :mad: Aren’t you in fact just putting words into my mouth? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/349 "2014-09-25T00:14:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A Dutchman who hid a Jewish girl from the Nazis has returned a medal that he received to the Israeli government, in[protest over family members killed in Gaza.](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28824672) (BBC Video). > Don’t know why he should have done that. Senility. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/350 "2014-09-25T04:14:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Nope thats theft and oppression. I know it must sting that even folks that saved jews during the holocaust want to having nothing to do with israel but remember, these guys generally saved jews because they had a conscience and some of them kept that conscience even after they got a medal. Now that’s just crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/351 "2014-09-25T12:43:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Nope thats theft and oppression. You’re contradicting yourself (again). Or did you mean that fighting back wasn’t oppression unless it was Israel fighting back? Or did you not know that Israel holds all its territory as a result of fighting back in 1948 and 1973 and most recently from the attacks by Hamas? If you could try to post in a more morally consistent manner, it might help. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/352 "2014-09-25T20:58:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’re contradicting yourself (again). Or did you mean that fighting back wasn’t oppression unless it was Israel fighting back? Or did you not know that Israel holds all its territory as a result of fighting back in 1948 and 1973 and most recently from the attacks by Hamas? > > If you could try to post in a more morally consistent manner, it might help. > > Regards, > Shodan When you say that none of Israe’s territory is the result of theft and oppression are you excluding the settlements? Because that is mostly what we talking about when we talk about land and oppression. Doe Israel retain any territory from the 6 day war? I don’t know how I feel about land taken during a preemptive war. What do you think? Can I premeptively invade my neighbor and take his land or is my preemptive action limited to eliminating the immediate threat? Did you not know that the popularity of Hamas is largely the result of Israeli opression? I don’t know what you mean by morally consistent in this case. What is morally inconsistent about pointing out how much it must sting to have someone who received a medal for saving jews during the holocaust return that medal because of how Israel is behaving. Its pretty clear that Israel is not the good guy. There probably are no good guys but there are innocents. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/353 "2014-09-26T14:45:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Doe Israel retain any territory from the 6 day war? I don’t know how I feel about land taken during a preemptive war. What do you think? Can I premeptively invade my neighbor and take his land or is my preemptive action limited to eliminating the immediate threat? I’m sure Egypt will be happy to get the Gaza Strip back, and Jordan will be delighted to get the West Bank back. That is what you want, right? > [@](#): > > Did you not know that the popularity of Hamas is largely the result of Israeli opression? The initial popularity of Hamas was largely due to the fact that they appeared to be a non-corrupt alternative to the PA, and carried out charitable works and welfare. The current popularity of Hamas stems from being seen to be ‘heroically’ fighting against Israel. War against Israel, alas, tends to be a sure-fire method of obtaining popularity in the muslim world - quite regardless of whether Israel is ‘oppressing’ them or not; for example, it was popular in Iraq, even though Iraq was never ‘oppressed’ by Israel. The proof is this: Hamas’ popularity slumped between its election and the last war; then surged with the last war. Presumably, Israeli ‘oppression’ is a constant, so it is not Israeli oppression that lead to popularity - but war. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what you mean by morally consistent in this case. What is morally inconsistent about pointing out how much it must sting to have someone who received a medal for saving jews during the holocaust return that medal because of how Israel is behaving. Not really. His heroism in WW2 does not give him any special insight into middle eastern affairs in the present decade. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/354 "2014-09-26T15:35:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m sure Egypt will be happy to get the Gaza Strip back, and Jordan will be delighted to get the West Bank back. > > That is what you want, right? If they would take them back, and if they want to go back, that would be a reasonable resolution in my mind at least. If not then Israel should stop building settlements and imposing crushing embargos, or is that unreasonable? > [@](#): > > The initial popularity of Hamas was largely due to the fact that they appeared to be a non-corrupt alternative to the PA, and carried out charitable works and welfare. > > The current popularity of Hamas stems from being seen to be ‘heroically’ fighting against Israel. War against Israel, alas, tends to be a sure-fire method of obtaining popularity in the muslim world - quite regardless of whether Israel is ‘oppressing’ them or not; for example, it was popular in Iraq, even though Iraq was never ‘oppressed’ by Israel. > > The proof is this: Hamas’ popularity slumped between its election and the last war; then surged with the last war. Presumably, Israeli ‘oppression’ is a constant, so it is not Israeli oppression that lead to popularity - but war. Is it possible that one of the reasons that it is a sure fire method of obtaining popularity because Israel is widely seen as an oppressor? > [@](#): > > Not really. His heroism in WW2 does not give him any special insight into middle eastern affairs in the present decade. It gives him some legitimacy with regards to questions of morality. Does it really take a middle east expert to identify oppression regardless of the excuses presented by the oppressor? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/355 "2014-09-26T15:42:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It gives him some legitimacy with regards to questions of morality. Does it really take a middle east expert to identify oppression regardless of the excuses presented by the oppressor? I have a lot of family in Israel. During the recent Gaza conflict, rocket alarms and alerts were going off all day long. There were iPhone apps that sounded when a rocket entered Israeli space anywhere in Israel and it was going off 100s of times a day. Thankfully, due to the investment of the Israeli government in keeping their people safe, very few actually landed. Unless you were aware of this, or had some expertise, you wouldn’t know that was going on. It wasn’t reported. There were no body counts. And yet in some parts Israel was under near constant bombardment. Sometimes situations aren’t what they appear to the casual observer. Plus, I knew many holocaust survivors who had fought to help and save people, who were homophobic and racist, as was common in their generation. Being noble and on the side of righteousness in one area doesn’t make you unable to be fallible in another. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/356 "2014-09-26T15:48:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When you say that none of Israe’s territory is the result of theft and oppression are you excluding the settlements? Because that is mostly what we talking about when we talk about land and oppression. No, references to land gained in 1948 and 1967 and 1973 is not a reference to settlements. It’s a reference to territory Israel gained by fighting back when attacked, which you said earlier was different from theft and oppression. So either you were wrong and fighting back is theft and oppression, or you were wrong in saying that Israel’s territory gained in 1948 and 1967 and 1973 is the result of theft and oppression. Which is it? > [@](#): > > I don’t know what you mean by morally consistent in this case. Obviously. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/357 "2014-10-15T21:50:17Z")
tl;dr I hope I’m not too late: “I didn’t know they gave out medals for that”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=17)