# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/101 "2014-08-22T21:10:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think conflating “Jews” and “Israel” is bullshit. > > The actions of Israel cannot “damage the good name of Jews”. > > The fact that some guy rescued some Jews before a country called Israel even existed does not thereby demonstrate that he ever approved of Israel in the first place. I think that is wishful thinking. Israel tries to get people to recognize the nation as the Jewish homeland even though I think that’s a mistake. And its true that there are plenty of Jews who don’t come from nor have ever been to Israel, or disagree with them. However, you’re wrong that it cannot damage the good name of the Jews because in the majority of people’s minds, they are the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/102 "2014-08-22T21:16:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think that is wishful thinking. Israel tries to get people to recognize the nation as the Jewish homeland even though I think that’s a mistake. And its true that there are plenty of Jews who don’t come from nor have ever been to Israel, or disagree with them. However, you’re wrong that it cannot damage the good name of the Jews because in the majority of people’s minds, they are the same thing. Then the majority of people are fools. Jews and Israelis are not the same thing. Asserting that the are is just plain old ignorance. If people end up hating Jews because of stuff Israel does, that is simply bigotry based on ignorance. If what Israel does gives fuel to ignorant bigots, that is just too bad. It sure as hell did not _cause_ people to become ignorant bigots - that’s something they did all on their lonesome. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/103 "2014-08-22T21:19:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No? Someone else wrote this, then? Not you? > > [emphasis added] I wrote it, but it doesn’t say Israel doesn’t have right to exist anywhere in there, Israel has a right to exist under international law. But the way it has been run, driving out as many natives as possible, seizing vast unauthorized areas, is a land grab, and the leaders of Israel claim unequivocally that Israel is entitled to lands not authorized by biblical grant or right of conquest. Neither are accepted under international law. They aren’t. They were allowed by the terms to form a government that included the natives, they have spent many years systematically eliminating the natives from enfranchisement and openly talk about making either Jewishness a qualification for voting, or a loyalty oath to a state of Jewishness. But I suspect you knew all this. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/104 "2014-08-22T21:19:32Z")
Israel is partly responsible (wholly in some minds) because of the extent to which they insist on being recognized as the Jewish homeland. My suggestion is that they drop that request and just hope to be recognized. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/105 "2014-08-22T21:24:36Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Israel is partly responsible (wholly in some minds) because of the extent to which they insist on being recognized as the Jewish homeland. My suggestion is that they drop that request and just hope to be recognized. What do you think? I think the notion that mean ol’ Israel is “responsible” for people in the rest of the world being Jew-hating bigots is nonsense, whether “partly” or “wholly”. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/106 "2014-08-22T21:29:57Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I wrote it, but it doesn’t say Israel doesn’t have right to exist anywhere in there, Israel has a right to exist under international law. But the way it has been run, driving out as many natives as possible, seizing vast unauthorized areas, is a land grab, and the leaders of Israel claim unequivocally that Israel is entitled to lands not authorized by biblical grant or right of conquest. Neither are accepted under international law. They aren’t. They were allowed by the terms to form a government that included the natives, they have spent many years systematically eliminating the natives from enfranchisement and openly talk about making either Jewishness a qualification for voting, or a loyalty oath to a state of Jewishness. But I suspect you knew all this. I said nothing about “right to exist”. What I said was, to you, Israel’s very existence as a country is the “offence” - that is, ‘the thing that pisses you off’. In short, that even if Israel left Gaza strictly alone, you would still be pissed off about Israel. Which, in fact, you keep confirming. BTW, the notion that Israeli Arabs cannot vote (“…they have spent many years systematically eliminating the natives from enfranchisement …”) is simply untrue. But then, if I attacked every untruth in your posts, I’d be here all night. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/107 "2014-08-22T21:36:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > However, you’re quite right to point out specific evil acts such as forcing a Palestinian child to open packages suspected of being booby-trapped. That’s no good. Oh shit. I didn’t even know about that. “That’s no good” is vastly understated. That is fricking evil. Nazi level evil. > [@Malthus](#): > > Then the majority of people are fools. Jews and Israelis are not the same thing. Asserting that the are is just plain old ignorance. > > If people end up hating Jews because of stuff Israel does, that is simply bigotry based on ignorance. If what Israel does gives fuel to ignorant bigots, that is just too bad. It sure as hell did not _cause_ people to become ignorant bigots - that’s something they did all on their lonesome. In case you hadn’t noticed in your time on this planet, the majority, the vast majority, of people are fools and ignorant bigots. You are correct that Jews and Israelis are not the same thing. And people of Jewish heritage are not Jews or Israelis. But the ignorant bigots of the world conflate them all. When the Nazis decided to take property, liberty and lives, one grandparent of Jewish descent whom you had never met was enough to cost you your property, liberty and life and after 1942 they got really busy on the life part. The Holocaust is certainly the genocide that most sears in the world’s mind, but it was hardly the first or the last. > **[Genocides in history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history)** > > Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people\[a\] in whole or in part. The term was coined in 1944 by Raphael Lemkin. It is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) of 1948 as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inf... [http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/genocide#Roman\_Empire](http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/genocide#Roman_Empire) And the scriptures are interesting reading for people who think that the God fearing cannot commit genocide. Plenty of genocides authorized by God in the good old days. What protects us are evenly applying laws and international standards and rejecting the special pleadings of those who stand to profit in land or power. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/108 "2014-08-22T21:58:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks, I think, for that link–there are many more specifics there than Second Stone has bothered to offer. Many of those actions by the IDF are indeed deplorable, although it’s still idiotic to compare them to death camps. > > Overall, the IDF’s main injustice IMO is an insufficient willingness to distinguish between combatant and civilian: while they make some effort, they’re too willing to accept civilian casualties (FWIW I think the US suffers from a similar problem, although I’m not willing to speculate on whether the US is as egregious in its negligence as Israel often is). However, you’re quite right to point out specific evil acts such as forcing a Palestinian child to open packages suspected of being booby-trapped. That’s no good. You’re correct that that was an unconscionable act, and I don’t think demotion and probation was sufficient punishment for the Israeli soldiers involved. You seem to have missed the abundant evidence in the link that not only have Israelis acted badly towards children, but Palestinians as well. For instance: \*"Though Israeli children were killed in the conflict during the decades prior, the first acts of Palestinian violence specifically targeting large numbers of Israeli children were committed in the 1970s. The Avivim school bus massacre was a terrorist attack on an Israeli school bus on May 22, 1970 in which 12 Israeli civilians were killed, nine of them children, and 25 were wounded. The attack took place on the road to Moshav Avivim, near Israel’s border with Lebanon. Two bazooka shells were fired at the bus.[22] The attack was one of the first carried out by the PFLP-GC…he Mercaz HaRav massacre, also called the Mercaz HaRav shooting, was an attack that occurred on March 6, 2008, in which a lone Palestinian gunman shot multiple students at the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva, a school in Jerusalem. Eight students and the perpetrator were killed. Eleven more were wounded, five of them placed in serious to critical condition… Other terrorist attacks targeting children included the Itamar attack in which six children and their parents were murdered in their beds, including a three-month-old infant,[32] and the 2011 Shaar HaNegev school bus attack in which Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip fired a Kornet laser-guided anti-tank missile over the border at an Israeli school bus, killing one child."\* This is not an attempt at a _tu quoque_ argument, but a recognition of historic wrongs that are not limited to a particular side in this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/109 "2014-08-22T22:22:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No? Someone else wrote this, then? Not you? > … > > In short, to you it doesn’t matter worth a damn what Israel is doing in Gaza right now, as their very existence as a country is the “offence”. Got it. > … > > I said nothing about “right to exist”. What I said was, to you, Israel’s very existence as a country is the “offence” - that is, ‘the thing that pisses you off’. In short, that even if Israel left Gaza strictly alone, you would still be pissed off about Israel. Which, in fact, you keep confirming. > > BTW, the notion that Israeli Arabs cannot vote (“…they have spent many years systematically eliminating the natives from enfranchisement …”) is simply untrue. But then, if I attacked every untruth in your posts, I’d be here all night. The people of the West Bank and Gaza do not have a right to vote in Israeli elections. They are people without a country, being dictated to by Israel. I did not say that Arab citizens of Israel proper cannot currently vote. But if you follow the proposals in the Knesset, you will see that right to vote is under attack. You have consistently misquoted, misattributed and misconstrued my positions. May I ask if this is deliberate? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/110 "2014-08-22T22:25:58Z")
Part of what I think is happening here is that Israel, an advanced and largely westernized nation, is being dragged down into the ugly barbarism that pervades pretty much the entire Middle east. Unlike the US and Europe who can comfortably pontificate from a safe and distant moral high ground, Israel is indeed fighting for its very survival with deadly enemies at its very borders and within them. I’m not saying this to defend or condemn either side of this conflict, but just expressing what I would think would be self-evident facts. I always think of Israel’s policies in terms of an analogy with the overreactions of an eccentric and paranoid uncle whose lifelong experience is that everyone is out to get him, a proper analogy requiring the extra qualification that, in fact, for this paranoid eccentric most of the time it’s actually true, and there are many who would like to see him dead. I personally think Israel would be well served by backing off to somewhat less extreme policies – and Netanyahu is definitely an uncompromising hawk – but this may be a lot to ask under the present circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/111 "2014-08-22T22:29:39Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > I personally don’t care about whether or not Israel is “as bad” as the Nazis. 2,000 dead is still 2,000 dead. If anyone wants to say that “Hey, 2,000 isn’t as bad as 6 million” then I’m not going to dispute the numbers, but I can still point out that Israel’s actions are despicable. I truly don’t care if they’re dead. They voted a terrorist group into office who then diverted resources meant to rebuild their community to build tunnels which served only one purpose. To attack Israel. They could have built… ANYTHING productive but they chose to wage war. They stockpiled and launched weapons from their own community. If the Palestinians don’t want to suffer the consequences of attacking another country then they should invest their time and money into NOT attacking Israel. The fact that they suffer disproportionately is their own fault. Nowhere in the history of warfare has a defending country gone to so much trouble to avoid civilian casualties as the Israelis. If It were my country I’d expect the head of state to put up with rocket attacks zero times. That’s a clear act of war. I’d expect a decisive victory followed by physical oversight until the problem was dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/112 "2014-08-22T22:32:37Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Israel is partly responsible (wholly in some minds) because of the extent to which they insist on being recognized as the Jewish homeland. My suggestion is that they drop that request and just hope to be recognized. What do you think? I think that for a nation to emphasize one religion is a mistake and a provocation. The movement in the US to claim the nation as a Christian nation seems to me to be an insult to all the citizens who do not Christian and an attempt to claim elite status. I don’t think the effort in Israel is really any different. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/113 "2014-08-22T22:36:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I truly don’t care if they’re dead. We know that you truly don’t care if they’re dead. > [@](#): > > ``` > First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Socialist. > > Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Trade Unionist. > > Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a Jew. > > Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. > > ``` > > Martin Niemöller ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/114 "2014-08-22T22:48:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You have consistently misquoted, misattributed and misconstrued my positions. May I ask if this is deliberate? There’s irony for you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/115 "2014-08-22T23:06:21Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > We know that you truly don’t care if they’re dead. Wow, you could not be more clueless about that quote. It’s about indifference. I’m not indifferent. Hammas has stated their intentions clearly. It’s never been vague. They’ve acted on their stated goal. The Palestinians showed their support for Hamas and are suffering the consequences. If you want to go the Nazi comparison route that’s easy. If Germans wanted to continue to take over the world my concern for them would be the same. but unlike Hamas they saw reason and did not front the Nazi agenda after defeat. They’re now the respected nation we see today. I care what happens to them. When Hammas stops their unending intent to destroy Israel I’ll care what happens to them. Until then, sucks to be a Nazi. Which IMO is who you’re supporting. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/116 "2014-08-22T23:10:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow, you could not be more clueless about that quote. It’s about indifference. I’m not indifferent. Hammas has stated their intentions clearly. It’s never been vague. They’ve acted on their stated goal. The Palestinians showed their support for Hamas and are suffering the consequences. The reason statements like this sound so callous is that they include thousands and thousands of children, many of whom have been fed hatred with their mother’s milk. Most Palestinians are innocents, as are most Gazans, most Israelis, etc. We should all be distressed when innocents are killed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/117 "2014-08-22T23:12:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Look, I’ve got about halfway through it before getting tired of trying to figure out what you think the point is. It’s long on claims but short on cites. What specific passages in textbooks are racist? Army rabbis telling soldiers it’s their mitzvah to “kill every Palestinian you see”–when, where, what’s the evidence? > > Nothing in the bit I read [edit: I finished reading the whole thing to avoid the infinitesimal chance that there’d be some strong evidence near the end of it] was fact-filled or persuasive. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As LHOD has noted, no audible or video will be accepted or reviewed by him, only printed word, we will see if he comes back and reviews the printed word. nice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/118 "2014-08-22T23:24:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Until then, sucks to be a Nazi. > > Which IMO is who you’re supporting. Mods, is it okay to insult another poster, namely me, this way. I’d like to know? I am no Nazi supporter. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/119 "2014-08-22T23:25:40Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > However, you’re wrong that it cannot damage the good name of the Jews because in the majority of people’s minds, they are the same thing. Bigoted bullshit. Most people certainly do not conflate Jews and Israel. Only virulent anti-Semites or Jewish radicals believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/120 "2014-08-22T23:28:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Mods, is it okay to insult another poster, namely me, this way. I’d like to know? I am no Nazi supporter. If you truly do want to stick to your moronic borderline, anti-Semiticclaims that Israel are behaving like Nazis, doesn’t that mean you think people like Elie Wiesel are Nazi supporters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=7)