# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/121 "2014-08-22T23:31:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > You’re correct that that was an unconscionable act, and I don’t think demotion and probation was sufficient punishment for the Israeli soldiers involved. > > You seem to have missed the abundant evidence in the link that not only have Israelis acted badly towards children, but Palestinians as well. On the contrary: my original response to you was going to draw a strong distinction between the Israeli policy of insufficiently protecting civilians, and Hamas’s policy of targeting civilians deliberately. I already knew about Hamas’s evils in this regard; what surprised me about your cite was learning of deliberate targeting by some IDF soldiers of Palestinian children. If you need me to say that Hamas is a vile terrorist organization, absolutely: they’re a vile terrorist organization, far worse than the IDF, in much the same way that the Sinaloa cartel is worse than the Mexican government. And yet, if I find out about Mexican police torturing peasants, I’ll probably speak out against that more loudly than I speak out against the Sinaloa murders, because I expect better of the Mexican government. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Oh shit. I didn’t even know about that. “That’s no good” is vastly understated. That is fricking evil. Nazi level evil. Excellent example of a lousy understanding of history. “That’s no good” was a deliberate understatement, and it’s refreshing to see you catch a rhetorical twist or two; gives me some hope. Yes, it’s evil. It’s evil on the level of a government that closes ranks behind a police officer who murders an unarmed black child, even worse than evil on the level of a government that waterboards prisoners. But calling it Nazi-level evil? Israeli soldiers got in an outrageously small amount of trouble for risking the life of a single child. Nazis [organized death camps for children](http://en.auschwitz.org/h/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=21&limit=1&limitstart=6), organized them at the highest level, put them in gas chambers to execute them. It’s fucking not Nazi-level evil. Call it America-level evil and I’ll agree, but to call it Nazi-level evil is to betray a fundamental inability to grapple with history. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/122 "2014-08-22T23:35:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The reason statements like this sound so callous is that they include thousands and thousands of children, many of whom have been fed hatred with their mother’s milk. Most Palestinians are innocents, as are most Gazans, most Israelis, etc. We should all be distressed when innocents are killed. You’d think people cared about their own children. but it doesn’t appear to be the case. In fact, the opposite appears to be true. If most Palestinians are innocent there wouldn’t be support for Hammas. They would be a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/123 "2014-08-22T23:41:33Z")
The Nazis were Nazi evil before they opened the first death camp in 1942. The Nazis were not merely routine evil until late 1942. Their policies of depriving whole people of life, liberty and property started when they were elected the largest party in 1933. [March 1933 German federal election - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933). Death camps were one of the biggest evils the Nazis started, but they were truly evil long before than. Doing to the Jews what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/124 "2014-08-22T23:42:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d think people cared about their own children. but it doesn’t appear to be the case. In fact, the opposite appears to be true. If most Palestinians are innocent there wouldn’t be support for Hammas. They would be a civil war. If every Palestinian mother is a ruthless dog who is willing to throw her baby under the treads of a tank, I still think the lives of Palestinian children should be respected. Racist insinuations about Palestinian parents are immaterial to the question of whether Palestinian children have rights. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/125 "2014-08-22T23:44:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The Nazis were Nazi evil before they opened the first death camp in 1942. This is foolish equivocation. Yes, the Nazis did all sorts of bad things, from drawing mean cartoons of Jews to putting them in death camps. But if someone draws a mean cartoon of a Palestinian, they’re not Nazi-level evil. Nazis earned their blue ribbon in the evil-off through their use of death camps, full stop. Edit: call Israel South-Africa level evil. Call Israel 1950-Alabama-level evil. You’ll have a case (although I may not agree). But Nazi level evil? Get out of here with that weak shit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/126 "2014-08-22T23:44:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d think people cared about their own children. but it doesn’t appear to be the case. In fact, the opposite appears to be true. If most Palestinians are innocent there wouldn’t be support for Hammas. They would be a civil war. As a rule, any time an entire ethnic group, _even if they voted for very bad people_, is declared “not innocents”, you know it’s bullshit. It’s _always true_. Every human ethnic group, throughout history and throughout the world, is mostly innocent people. So most Palestinian men, women, and children are innocents. The ones who aren’t are the ones who shoot at Israelis, or provide material support to those who do. And “voting for Hamas” or “hating Israel” doesn’t count as providing material support. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/127 "2014-08-22T23:47:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d think people cared about their own children. but it doesn’t appear to be the case. In fact, the opposite appears to be true. If most Palestinians are innocent there wouldn’t be support for Hammas. They would be a civil war. They don’t have the resources. Hamas has secret police powers similar to many other dictators, past and present. The moment someone even starts a conspiracy to revolt, they get found out and made to disappear. You might as well say that the people suffering under Hitler or Stalin should have risen up in a civil war. As some kind of abstract ideal, maybe, but in practice, it could not have happened. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/128 "2014-08-22T23:51:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d think people cared about their own children. but it doesn’t appear to be the case. In fact, the opposite appears to be true. If most Palestinians are innocent there wouldn’t be support for Hammas. They would be a civil war. Ah, collective guilt and dehumanizing people by pretending they don’t love their children. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/129 "2014-08-22T23:57:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bigoted bullshit. > > Most people certainly do not conflate Jews and Israel. > > Only virulent anti-Semites or Jewish radicals believe that. This was too harsh. I realize this could suggest you’re an anti- Semite and an don’t think that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/130 "2014-08-22T23:59:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is foolish equivocation. Yes, the Nazis did all sorts of bad things, from drawing mean cartoons of Jews to putting them in death camps. But if someone draws a mean cartoon of a Palestinian, they’re not Nazi-level evil. Nazis earned their blue ribbon in the evil-off through their use of death camps, full stop. > > Edit: call Israel South-Africa level evil. Call Israel 1950-Alabama-level evil. You’ll have a case (although I may not agree). But Nazi level evil? Get out of here with that weak shit. Drawing racist cartoons isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about machine gunning young boys, bombing schools and hospitals. The South Africans were an evil apartheid state, but they were not so evil that they baited and murdered young boys, bombed civilians and schools. And they eventually realized their evil and stepped down. Several years ago Jimmy Carter called Israel an apartheid state, which you are now doing. He was ostracized by Israel and strongly condemned. Of course, he was right, it is an apartheid state. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/131 "2014-08-23T00:07:50Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Several years ago Jimmy Carter called Israel an apartheid state, which you are now doing. He was ostracized by Israel and strongly condemned. Of course, he was right, it is an apartheid state. Read carefully: > [@](#): > > call Israel South-Africa level evil. Call Israel 1950-Alabama-level evil. You’ll have a case (although I may not agree). You’re misunderstanding virtually everything I type, in ways that explicitly contradict what I say. I am no friend of the Israeli government; indeed, I think one of the worst real-world effects of idiotic rhetoric like yours is that it serves to strengthen the hawks in Israel’s government. But not being a friend of Netanyahu doesn’t mean that ahistorical hyperbole has any place in a civilized conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/132 "2014-08-23T00:19:40Z")
So…should Israel just absorb the rocket attacks and do nothing? A path to peace, no? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/133 "2014-08-23T00:22:06Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The South Africans were an evil apartheid state, but they were not so evil that they baited and murdered young boys, bombed civilians and schools. And they eventually realized their evil and stepped down. Someone ( **Mr. Dibble**?) can probably come along and mock your misapprehension of South African history–the suggestion that South African blacks faced less violence than Palestinians is absurd–but let’s look at the comparison to the American South. We WERE so evil that we murdered young boys: look at Medgar Evers. We WERE so evil that churches with little girls in them were bombed: look at the Birmingham church bombing. And we did so without facing a united sustained campaign of murderous terror committed by a shadowy organization to motivate us. The behavior of Israel’s hawkish government is terrible. But comparisons to Nazi Germany are both horribly incorrect and, practically speaking, completely counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/134 "2014-08-23T00:25:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If every Palestinian mother is a ruthless dog who is willing to throw her baby under the treads of a tank, I still think the lives of Palestinian children should be respected. Well that’s a noble sentiment but the respect (and care) has to come from the parent. If they don’t care then they’re raising their children to repeat the process. And that process means creating more children to paint the treads of tanks with blood. The Palestinian children are dying because of the actions, beliefs and hatred exhibited by their parents. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Racist insinuations about Palestinian parents are immaterial to the question of whether Palestinian children have rights. The racist hatred exhibited by Palestinian parents is the most material piece of the puzzle. Israelis don’t want to exterminate them. In what universe has there ever been a war where people are notified ahead of time before bombs rain down? If the military capacities were reversed, What do you think would be the end result? I’d say Israel would have been a radioactive hole years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/135 "2014-08-23T00:30:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that’s a noble sentiment but the respect (and care) has to come from the parent. No it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > If they don’t care then they’re raising their children to repeat the process. And that process means creating more children to paint the treads of tanks with blood. The Palestinian children are dying because of the actions, beliefs and hatred exhibited by their parents. What an ugly transference of guilt. When an Israeli military action results in predictable deaths of civilians, it’s the responsibility of the Israeli military, just as when a Hamas terrorist action results in the predictable deaths of civilians, it’s the responsibility of Hamas. > [@](#): > > The racist hatred exhibited by Palestinian parents is the most material piece of the puzzle. No it’s not. > [@](#): > > In what universe has there ever been a war where people are notified ahead of time before bombs rain down? So what? It’s an arresting idea, but it’s demonstrably ineffective in preventing civilian casualties. I’ve not seen much evidence that it’s effective as anything other than propaganda. > [@](#): > > If the military capacities were reversed, What do you think would be the end result? I’d say Israel would have been a radioactive hole years ago. So what? They’re not reversed. I don’t hold people responsible for Bizarro-world scenarios, I hold them responsible for what they choose to do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/136 "2014-08-23T00:32:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So…should Israel just absorb the rocket attacks and do nothing? > > A path to peace, no? they should play fair and randomly shoot rockets of the same number and capacity. And dig tunnels. You can never have too many tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/137 "2014-08-23T00:32:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that’s a noble sentiment but the respect (and care) has to come from the parent. If they don’t care then they’re raising their children to repeat the process. And that process means creating more children to paint the treads of tanks with blood. The Palestinian children are dying because of the actions, beliefs and hatred exhibited by their parents. This is a profoundly bigoted statement. With some basic knowledge of history, you should recognize that these sorts of statements about a particular ethnic group have never been followed by anything but misery and tragedy. Whatever the crimes of some individual Palestinians, not all Palestinians are guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/138 "2014-08-23T00:41:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is a profoundly bigoted statement. With some basic knowledge of history, you should recognize that these sorts of statements about a particular ethnic group have never been followed by anything but misery and tragedy. Whatever the crimes of some individual Palestinians, not all Palestinians are guilty. Indeed. Would that the Magivers and Second Stones of the world could be left to one another’s mercies, leaving the rest of us out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/139 "2014-08-23T00:46:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No it doesn’t. Yes, it does. The parent has the responsibility for how their actions affect their children. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What an ugly transference of guilt. When an Israeli military action results in predictable deaths of civilians, it’s the responsibility of the Israeli military, just as when a Hamas terrorist action results in the predictable deaths of civilians, it’s the responsibility of Hamas. The Israeli action was predictable to Hamas. The deaths are Hamas’s fault. No nation on earth is going to let thousands of missiles rain down without responding and few would take the precaution to warn their enemy. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No it’s not. which group has vowed to destroy the other? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what? It’s an arresting idea, but it’s demonstrably ineffective in preventing civilian casualties. I’ve not seen much evidence that it’s effective as anything other than propaganda. on what planet do you live on that war is waged without civilian casualties. They’re not throwing rocks, they’re launching rockets from civilian locations. Israel is doing the most they can to mitigate the dangerous situation created by Hamas. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So what? They’re not reversed. I don’t hold people responsible for Bizarro-world scenarios, I hold them responsible for what they choose to do. it’s not a Bizarro-world scenario. The stated goal of Hammas is to destroy Israel. It is not the stated goal of Israel to do otherwise. Over the years Hammas has improved it’s weapons and will continue to do so. Under what pretense is Israel not suppose to respond to an unending barrage of rockets? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/140 "2014-08-23T01:01:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is a profoundly bigoted statement. With some basic knowledge of history, you should recognize that these sorts of statements about a particular ethnic group have never been followed by anything but misery and tragedy. Really. I haven’t suggested the Palestinians be exterminated. The reverse cannot be said about the Palestinians. I simply said I don’t care about them because they don’t care about themselves. If they stopped launching missiles tomorrow they would not get bombed. If they built schools that taught science instead of tunnels to further their war effort life would be much different. People would care. But they don’t. The region keeps feeding them arms to wage a proxy war of hatred and bigotry. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whatever the crimes of some individual Palestinians, not all Palestinians are guilty. these aren’t crimes, it’s a war. A never ending war. Germany wasn’t wall to wall Nazis. Far from it. But there was a great deal of ideological support for the war. Hamas is the modern Nazi that just won’t quite and so far neither has their support. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=8)