# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/141 "2014-08-23T01:06:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Read carefully: > > You’re misunderstanding virtually everything I type, in ways that explicitly contradict what I say. I am no friend of the Israeli government; indeed, I think one of the worst real-world effects of idiotic rhetoric like yours is that it serves to strengthen the hawks in Israel’s government. But not being a friend of Netanyahu doesn’t mean that ahistorical hyperbole has any place in a civilized conversation. And if you were the Israeli Prime Minister you would do what in response to thousands of rockets? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/142 "2014-08-23T01:20:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Israel is partly responsible (wholly in some minds) because of the extent to which they insist on being recognized as the Jewish homeland. My suggestion is that they drop that request and just hope to be recognized. What do you think? You think Germany needs to change it’s name? Why? I’m not a fan of blood and soil nationalism but lots of countries are founded on it. Strangely enough many only care when Israel does it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/143 "2014-08-23T01:24:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that’s a noble sentiment but the respect (and care) has to come from the parent. If they don’t care then they’re raising their children to repeat the process. And that process means creating more children to paint the treads of tanks with blood. The Palestinian children are dying because of the actions, beliefs and hatred exhibited by their parents. > > The racist hatred exhibited by Palestinian parents is the most material piece of the puzzle. Israelis don’t want to exterminate them. In what universe has there ever been a war where people are notified ahead of time before bombs rain down? > > If the military capacities were reversed, What do you think would be the end result? I’d say Israel would have been a radioactive hole years ago. Racist bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/144 "2014-08-23T02:05:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really. I haven’t suggested the Palestinians be exterminated. The reverse cannot be said about the Palestinians. There are levels of bigotry beneath advocating extermination. Suggesting that all (or most) Palestinian parents don’t care about their children is bigotry. There’s no way the statement “[ethnic group X] parents do not care about their children’s lives”, whatever the ethnic group is, can _not_ be profoundly bigoted. That’s _always a bigoted statement._ > [@](#): > > I simply said I don’t care about them because they don’t care about themselves. Also a bigoted statement. Generally, blanket statements about an ethnic group, especially with a negative value judgment like “they don’t care about themselves”, are _always bigoted_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/145 "2014-08-23T02:10:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And if you were the Israeli Prime Minister you would do what in response to thousands of rockets? This is a foolish question, implying that if I don’t have a full peace plan laid out, I cannot criticize any military action taken by Israel. Of course that’s idiotic. There are plenty of peace plans on the table, and if I were the Israeli Prime Minister, I’d figure out what I could do unilaterally to move the process forward, not insisting “You first!” as both sides keep saying to the other. The Israeli Peace INitiative might be a good place to start, or perhaps the two-state solution. I’d certainly give the settlers a 30-day ultimatum: in 30 days, their settlements no longer receive any support whatsoever from the government. Settlers’ reasonable moving costs to move into Israel proper will be covered. But asking me specifically what I’d do, when the best diplomats in the world have failed to find a specific answer, is not a reasonable request. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/146 "2014-08-23T05:48:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … > > If they stopped launching missiles tomorrow they would not get bombed. If they built schools that taught science instead of tunnels to further their war effort life would be much different. People would care. But they don’t. The region keeps feeding them arms to wage a proxy war of hatred and bigotry. > > these aren’t crimes, it’s a war. A never ending war. Germany wasn’t wall to wall Nazis. Far from it. But there was a great deal of ideological support for the war. Hamas is the modern Nazi that just won’t quite and so far neither has their support. Lots of Palestinians who do not launch rockets do get bombed. And it is not a war. War is hostility between states. Gaza is definitely not a state. They are territories where “conquered” natives are exiled and kept. It is a ghetto. The most powerful are in charge of the ghetto and terrorize everyone else on both sides of the wall. It is very similar to the ghettos the Nazis confined Jews to before the death camps. Interesting to see that you think Hamas are modern Nazis. Make your case. Let’s consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/147 "2014-08-23T06:15:53Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Interesting to see that you think Hamas are modern Nazis. Make your case. Let’s consider it. Since based on the logic of your posts on this thread(admittedly every single one has been jaw droppingly stupid) people like Elie Weisel are Nazi sympathizers this is an extremely bizarre statement. Let me ask you two questions. If someone chooses to go by the nickname “Abu Hitler”, is it fair to compare them to Nazis? If someone claims Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs is it fair to compare them to Nazis? It you don’t, please explain. For the record, I don’t, but I actually care about the Palestinians and their cause, you have shown little concern for either. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/148 "2014-08-23T10:06:25Z")
Hamas is a deeply misunderstood organization. Portrayed by the West as savage and bloodthirsty, nothing could be further from the truth. In reality they want nothing more than to live in peace with Israel once all the Jews are killed. Hamas is simply taking the peace.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/149 "2014-08-23T10:48:10Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well, marrying a non-Jew certainly gets you a lot of cred in my book. Five yelling Rabbis is a poker game! My Dad (a Jew) married a non-Jew, that makes us cousins! > > My personal conduct and political belief isn’t governed by the standards of tyrants, criminals, racists do or have done. My conduct and belief is governed by the standard of would you want this done to you and yours? There is no declared war of one country against another, rules of occupation followed, it is a constant oppression and squeezing. > > What happened to the Jews in Germany in the 1930s was a Nazi crime against humanity and a horror that the world largely ignored. Now _we_ are financing (through my tax dollars) the killing of thousands of Gazans every time it suits the political need of the government without specially targeting the military actors, killing bystanders and baiting and killing young boys. Some Israelis and some Americans have called for killing _all_ of them. We are well along the long slide of moral depravity. > > Supporting hypothetical rights such as a pretend government doesn’t excuse the misery that is Gaza. If you wouldn’t accept this happening to you and yours right now, then it isn’t acceptable. That a just agreement hasn’t been reached in decades does not justify a position of when can have justice later. > > Would you be okay with your tax dollars supporting the State of Palestine that controls access to the Israeli ghetto, not government, of Tel Aviv without travel access controlled by Palestine, where life is misery. Would what goes on in Gaza be okay to do to Israelis? Is the humanity of one superior to another? > > When the Israeli troops enter Gaza and taunt the children over the loudspeaker, and the children throw _rocks_ and the Israeli troops then machine gun those children, is that not utterly fucking monstrous. Is that not fascism? How many people in Gaza do you think Israel would have killed if there were no rockets sent form Gaza into Israel? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/150 "2014-08-23T12:35:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How many people in Gaza do you think Israel would have killed if there were no rockets sent form Gaza into Israel? Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/151 "2014-08-23T13:19:59Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. In what way do Israel’s current actions in Gaza constitute collective punishment? If an American tank shell fired at a German bunker in World War II went wide and hit a civilian’s house, is that collective punishment as well? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/152 "2014-08-23T13:45:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In what way do Israel’s current actions in Gaza constitute collective punishment? > > If an American tank shell fired at a German bunker in World War II went wide and hit a civilian’s house, is that collective punishment as well? I agree that technically Israel’s actions don’t constitute collective punishment. However, Magiver’s defense of those actions amounts to an appeal for collective punishment. When Second Stone raises the collective punishment spectre to criticize Israel directly, it’s a mistaken criticism. It’s a perfectly valid criticism of Magiver’s racist arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/153 "2014-08-23T13:50:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree that technically Israel’s actions don’t constitute collective punishment. However, Magiver’s defense of those actions amounts to an appeal for collective punishment. > > When Second Stone raises the collective punishment spectre to criticize Israel directly, it’s a mistaken criticism. It’s a perfectly valid criticism of Magiver’s racist arguments. Agreed, **Magiver** is way off-base, but the context of **The Second Stone** ’s remark was a reply to **magellan01** , not **Magiver**. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/154 "2014-08-23T13:50:21Z")
They are not free to come and go. It’s a giant prison. When the little boys are baited and then machine gunned when they throw rocks. When hospitals and schools are destroyed. And I don’t see why you put the qualified “current” in there. Are you less than satisfied with all of Israel’s past actions in Gaza? The comparison of a declared war between two nations is also inappropriate. There is no declared war, and only Israel is a nation. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/155 "2014-08-23T14:08:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > They are not free to come and go. It’s a giant prison. When the little boys are baited and then machine gunned when they throw rocks. When hospitals and schools are destroyed. And I don’t see why you put the qualified “current” in there. Are you less than satisfied with all of Israel’s past actions in Gaza? Because the current operation - the ground invasion in response to rocket attacks - was the context of post which prompted your remark about collective punishment. If you just meant “Collective punishment is a crime against humanity” as a general statement that’s true, and not a commentary on the invasion of Gaza, that was not at all clear. Can you clarify your positon re: collective punishment? > [@The Second Stone](#): > > The comparison of a declared war between two nations is also inappropriate. There is no declared war, and only Israel is a nation. The Whiskey Rebellion, then. If an American soldier fired his musket at a rebel and accidentally hit a bystander, is that collective punishment of farmers? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/156 "2014-08-23T14:20:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Agreed, **Magiver** is way off-base, but the context of **The Second Stone** ’s remark was a reply to **magellan01** , not **Magiver**. :smack: I have been getting those two posters confused for years. My apologies. I think magellan is also appealing to collective punishment, albeit not in an explicitly racist fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/157 "2014-08-23T14:26:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The Whiskey Rebellion, then. If an American soldier fired his musket at a rebel and accidentally hit a bystander, is that collective punishment of farmers? I suspect (hope, even) my answer differs from Second Stone’s. What does the American soldier say after this shot? Does he say, as Israel tends to say, that he wishes the shot hadn’t hit a bystander and he was trying real hard not to? If so, and if he’s sincere, that’s not collective punishment (although it still might be unacceptable). Does he say that the bystander wouldn’t have been hit if she’d done a little more to stop Eastern banking interests from crushing farmers, say that if Boston residents weren’t so financially rapacious none of them would get hit by stray bullets? If he says that, it’s collective punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/158 "2014-08-23T14:39:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :smack: I have been getting those two posters confused for years. My apologies. I think magellan is also appealing to collective punishment, albeit not in an explicitly racist fashion. In this thread, or elsewhere? Absent more information, it’s hard to call “How many people in Gaza do you think Israel would have killed if there were no rockets sent form Gaza into Israel?” an appeal to collective punishment, as opposed to placing blame for Gazan civilian deaths with those who fire rockets at Israel, which is a reasonable position. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I suspect (hope, even) my answer differs from Second Stone’s. What does the American soldier say after this shot? Does he say, as Israel tends to say, that he wishes the shot hadn’t hit a bystander and he was trying real hard not to? If so, and if he’s sincere, that’s not collective punishment (although it still might be unacceptable). Does he say that the bystander wouldn’t have been hit if she’d done a little more to stop Eastern banking interests from crushing farmers, say that if Boston residents weren’t so financially rapacious none of them would get hit by stray bullets? If he says that, it’s collective punishment. That’s also a reasonable position. Further, there is evidence that Israel’s military does, indeed, try hard to avoid civilian casualties. Not to the point of refraining from military action in the first place, of course, but that’s true of every military. Working to target only those responsible for the rockets attacks is precisely the opposite of collective punishment, hence my bafflement with **The Second Stone** ’s comment. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/159 "2014-08-23T15:49:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Racist bullshit. yes what the Palestinians teach their children is racist bullshit. They wouldn’t be in this situation if they didn’t continually attack Israel and they wouldn’t continually attack Israel if they didn’t feel as they do. The Nazis were not the majority of the German population but it took the support of the population to allow them to rise to power. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/160 "2014-08-23T15:55:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The comparison of a declared war between two nations is also inappropriate. There is no declared war, and only Israel is a nation. hamas has vowed to destroy Israel and they have enough political support to to stock and then launch thousands of rockets and dig sophisticated tunnel systems. They are fed a continuous stock of military weapons from other countries. It’s absolutely a war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=9)