# Man returns Holocaust medal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760 "2014-08-17T15:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/161 "2014-08-23T15:56:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > You seem to have missed the abundant evidence in the link ([Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)) that not only have Israelis acted badly towards children, but Palestinians as well. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On the contrary: my original response to you was going to draw a strong distinction between the Israeli policy of insufficiently protecting civilians, and Hamas’s policy of targeting civilians deliberately. I already knew about Hamas’s evils in this regard; what surprised me about your cite was learning of deliberate targeting by some IDF soldiers of Palestinian children. What you’re still missing is that the link details the killing of children over the years by _Palestinians_, not just Hamas (dating back to 1929 and continuing up to present-day terrorist attacks on school buses etc.). If your argument for singling out only the two IDF soldiers putting Palestinian kids at risk is that well, you expect better of Israelis than Palestinians - then that comes off sounding awfully bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/162 "2014-08-23T16:07:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a foolish question, implying that if I don’t have a full peace plan laid out, I cannot criticize any military action taken by Israel. Of course that’s idiotic. There are plenty of peace plans on the table, and if I were the Israeli Prime Minister, I’d figure out what I could do unilaterally to move the process forward, not insisting “You first!” as both sides keep saying to the other. The Israeli Peace INitiative might be a good place to start, or perhaps the two-state solution. > > I’d certainly give the settlers a 30-day ultimatum: in 30 days, their settlements no longer receive any support whatsoever from the government. Settlers’ reasonable moving costs to move into Israel proper will be covered. > > But asking me specifically what I’d do, when the best diplomats in the world have failed to find a specific answer, is not a reasonable request. Ah, you can comment on what you’d do to the settlers but thousands of missiles hitting your country is a big mystery. Got it. No clue whatsoever how you’d react to explosives raining down on your community. Every leader of every country that ever existed would defend their country until the aggressor stopped. But you, not a clue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/163 "2014-08-23T16:17:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes what the Palestinians teach their children is racist bullshit. If you teach your children that Palestinian parents don’t care about the lives of their children, then you’re teaching your children racist bullshit. Do you really not get that _every person who has ever made racist statements_ uses the same kind of justification you are? The Palestinians are not some unique group in history. Everything you’re saying about them has been said before about Jews, about blacks, Roma, the Irish, Muslims, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/164 "2014-08-23T16:23:54Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What you’re still missing is that the link details the killing of children over the years by _Palestinians_, not just Hamas (dating back to 1929 and continuing up to present-day terrorist attacks on school buses etc.). > > If your argument for singling out only the two IDF soldiers putting Palestinian kids at risk is that well, you expect better of Israelis than Palestinians - then that comes off sounding awfully bigoted. None of that changes what I’m saying. Let me go ahead and blanket-condemn all murders and abuse of children throughout history, so that you can’t accuse me of missing any others. But I’ll spend more time talking about abuse or murder of children **committed by representatives of an elected government that’s friends with my own government** , because I expect better of those folks, and because I think they’re likelier to be receptive to measured criticism of what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/165 "2014-08-23T16:25:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Ah, you can comment on what you’d do to the settlers but thousands of missiles hitting your country is a big mystery. Got it. No clue whatsoever how you’d react to explosives raining down on your community. Contemptible bullshit. I mentioned two specific proposals. Your unwillingness to recognize that reflects on you, not me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/166 "2014-08-23T16:32:34Z")
I’ll add that one can be in complete support of Israel’s policies without holding racist views about the Palestinians, just as one can oppose Israel’s policies without holding racist views. But so far, **Magiver** , the views you’ve expressed about the Palestinians are in fact racist views. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/167 "2014-08-23T16:36:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree that technically Israel’s actions don’t constitute collective punishment. However, Magiver’s defense of those actions amounts to an appeal for collective punishment. > > When Second Stone raises the collective punishment spectre to criticize Israel directly, it’s a mistaken criticism. It’s a perfectly valid criticism of Magiver’s racist arguments. I wouldn’t classify what’s going on now as “collective punishment”, but Israel certainly has regularly done do in the past. The imposition of 24 hour curfews on villages, preventing people from going to their jobs, house demolitions etc. certainly constituted that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/168 "2014-08-23T16:41:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll add that one can be in complete support of Israel’s policies without holding racist views about the Palestinians, just as one can oppose Israel’s policies without holding racist views. > > But so far, **Magiver** , the views you’ve expressed about the Palestinians are in fact racist views. Agreed entirely. There is plenty of racist bullshit to go around, both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel. There are also genuine arguments from principle on both sides. It’d be far better if the folks motivated by extremism would shut up and let moderates work to solve the problem; indeed, if they did, the conflict would end toot sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/169 "2014-08-23T20:24:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you teach your children that Palestinian parents don’t care about the lives of their children, then you’re teaching your children racist bullshit. I’m not teaching children anything. They only need to [watch the news](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-201482285624490268.html). Hamas just publicly executed 18 Palestinians. [Publicly](http://www.eurojewcong.org/img/articles/638x389/11136.jpg) as in front of children. This is fact. Again, their [stated goal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant) of the destruction of Israel. They have continuously attacked Israel. This is fact. Hamas has enough support of the people to exist within the political system and outside it in full view of the law. This is fact. Explain to me how a responsible society supports this and by extension the parents of that society. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you really not get that _every person who has ever made racist statements_ uses the same kind of justification you are? The Palestinians are not some unique group in history. Everything you’re saying about them has been said before about Jews, about blacks, Roma, the Irish, Muslims, etc. I get that the Palestinians hate Jews and will sacrifice and kill their own toward that goal. Unlike the feelings Palestinians have for Jews I don’t hate them. I just don’t care what happens to them because of their own behavior. They willfully engage in a war they know they’ll lose. They allow Hamas to use schools and other public buildings to store and launch weapons. When they change their behavior then I will care just like I care for Germans. It’s the difference between WW-II and flying planes over them with bombs and the post war where we flew planes into Berlin with aid. I can’t make it any clearer than that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/170 "2014-08-23T20:31:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Contemptible bullshit. I mentioned two specific proposals. Your unwillingness to recognize that reflects on you, not me. You completely walked around the question. I never asked about your “peace plan”. You know damn well that if you were the leader of a country and thousands of missiles were launched against it you would attack those responsible. There isn’t a leader who wouldn’t. So I call bullshit on your response. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/171 "2014-08-23T20:36:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m not teaching children anything. They only need to [watch the news](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-201482285624490268.html). > Hamas just publicly executed 18 Palestinians. [Publicly](http://www.eurojewcong.org/img/articles/638x389/11136.jpg) as in front of children. This is fact. So some Palestinians are assholes. Saying that is not a racist statement. Saying “Palestinian parents don’t care about their children” is a racist statement (as well as obviously false). _Any negative, blanket statement_ about an ethnic group is racist. Do you see the difference? > [@](#): > > Again, their [stated goal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant) of the destruction of Israel. They have continuously attacked Israel. This is fact. Yes, Hamas is full of assholes. That’s not racist. “Palestinians are X”, when X is some negative quality, is racist. > [@](#): > > Hamas has enough support of the people to exist within the political system and outside it in full view of the law. This is fact. Whether true or not, this has nothing to do with your racist assertions. > [@](#): > > Explain to me how a responsible society supports this and by extension the parents of that society. What is a “responsible society”? The vast majority of societies in world history, including American society for most of American history, were not “responsible societies”. It still doesn’t justify making racist statements. > [@](#): > > I get that the Palestinians hate Jews and will sacrifice and kill their own toward that goal. You get wrong, then. Perhaps some Palestinians feel this way. Not all do. It’s racist (and factually wrong) to say negative things about an entire ethnic group. Always has been and always will be. > [@](#): > > I can’t make it any clearer than that. You’ve made your deluded and racist views about the Palestinians pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/172 "2014-08-23T20:48:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll add that one can be in complete support of Israel’s policies without holding racist views about the Palestinians, just as one can oppose Israel’s policies without holding racist views. > > But so far, **Magiver** , the views you’ve expressed about the Palestinians are in fact racist views. :rolleyes:Do you even know what the word means? Seriously? Have I ever wished them dead or declared them lesser people in any way? No. I simply stated I don’t care about them at this point in time. If they’re going to focus their societal efforts on waging war against their neighbor then they can’t really complain about the results. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/173 "2014-08-23T21:11:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So some Palestinians are assholes. Saying that is not a racist statement. Saying “Palestinian parents don’t care about their children” is a racist statement (as well as obviously false). _Any negative, blanket statement_ about an ethnic group is racist. Do you see the difference? No it’s a collective statement about their collective behavior. I already made the analogy with WW-II Germany. It took the combined support of the entire population to make that happen. While very few Germans committed atrocities, the war machine they supported did and the consequences of their actions resulted in a lot of dead people themselves included. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, Hamas is full of assholes. That’s not racist. “Palestinians are X”, when X is some negative quality, is racist. What the Fuck? Hamas is not racist? Really? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether true or not, this has nothing to do with your racist assertions. which are? State your case because you’re the one supporting people who empowered Hamas. Where in anything I’ve said have I made any assertions regarding the superiority or lack of in relation to Palestinians? You on the other hand are giving support for a lawless group that kills it’s own people and whose stated goal is the destruction of another group of people. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You get wrong, then. Perhaps some Palestinians feel this way. Not all do. It’s racist (and factually wrong) to say negative things about an entire ethnic group. Always has been and always will be. The current state of war the Palestinians are in is a direct result of their collective support for Hamas. There is no indication that they care about the safety of their children or they wouldn’t let Hamas use schools and their community to store weapons and launch them. Would you let terrorists do this in your neighborhood? Is this something a responsible group of people do as it relates to the care of their children? It’s fucking retarded to say it’s racist to point that out. Its FACT that this is going on. FACT. I’m not suggesting it might happen, I’m stating factually that it’s occurring and it CANNOT do so for this many years without public support. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/174 "2014-08-23T21:11:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :rolleyes:Do you even know what the word means? Seriously? Have I ever wished them dead or declared them lesser people in any way? You haven’t wished them dead, but then most racists don’t wish the other races dead. You have declared them lesser people. Saying the parents don’t care about their children is _absolutely_ declaring them lesser people. If someone says “black people don’t care about their children”, then someone just said something racist about black people. > [@](#): > > No. I simply stated I don’t care about them at this point in time. You also said they don’t care about their children, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/175 "2014-08-23T21:15:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What the Fuck? Hamas is not racist? Really? Huh? Of course Hamas is racist! That doesn’t mean Palestinians don’t care about their children. > [@](#): > > which are? State your case because you’re the one supporting people who empowered Hamas. Where in anything I’ve said have I made any assertions regarding the superiority or lack of in relation to Palestinians? You said that Palestinians don’t care about their children. That’s certainly stating a negative judgment about them. And stating negative judgments about entire ethnic groups is racist. > [@](#): > > You on the other hand are giving support for a lawless group that kills it’s own people and whose stated goal is the destruction of another group of people. No I’m not. I oppose Hamas. > [@](#): > > The current state of war the Palestinians are in is a direct result of their collective support for Hamas. There is no indication that they care about the safety of their children or they wouldn’t let Hamas use schools and their community to store weapons and launch them. More racist assertions about Palestinians. > [@](#): > > It’s fucking retarded to say it’s racist to point that out. Its FACT that this is going on. FACT. I’m not suggesting it might happen, I’m stating factually that it’s occurring and it CANNOT do so for this many years without public support. It’s not a fact that Palestinians don’t care about their children. That’s a false and racist assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/176 "2014-08-23T21:25:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I wouldn’t classify what’s going on now as “collective punishment”, but Israel certainly has regularly done do in the past. The imposition of 24 hour curfews on villages, preventing people from going to their jobs, house demolitions etc. certainly constituted that. It’s not collective punishment. It’s collective responsibility. Israel isn’t TRYING specifically to kill the children. they’re TRYING to destroy Hamas leaders, soldiers and weapons. Hamas wants to kill civilians. It’s ironic that Israel is less successful at avoiding collateral damage than Hamas is of creating it but it doesn’t belay intent. Palestinians are responsible for their own destiny. Allowing Hamas to wage war from their neighborhoods and schools comes with a known response. those buildings are going to be destroyed. Going to happen. Guaranteed. Hamas is killing Palestinians in mass public executions. IMO they’re evil. They’re the Klu Klux Klan on steroids and like the Klan of old, there was enough public support to let them exist openly in society. That means that while a person might not BE a member of Hamas, they know someone who IS. This is the collective support I talked about and because of this there is a collective responsibility attached to it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/177 "2014-08-23T21:35:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? Of course Hamas is racist! That doesn’t mean Palestinians don’t care about their children. If you willfully let your child play on a highway I would conclude you don’t care about them. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You said that Palestinians don’t care about their children. That’s certainly stating a negative judgment about them. And stating negative judgments about entire ethnic groups is racist. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No I’m not. I oppose Hamas. then you should acknowledge public support for Hamas is a bad thing and doing so as a group comes with consequences. Repeating that support year after year after year is a willful disregard for the personal safety of the children of that community. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not a fact that Palestinians don’t care about their children. That’s a false and racist assertion. It’s a fact they support Hamas. That support carries with it an absolute certainty of war and collateral damage. Explain how engaging in activity you know will result in their deaths is not a collective disregard for their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/178 "2014-08-23T21:40:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not collective punishment. It’s collective responsibility. Heh? Orwellian logic at its finest. I’ll freely admit to loving some of the Orwellian phrases and logic on the pro-Israeli side. “Present absentees” “We don’t have segregated schools, we have separate schools”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/179 "2014-08-23T21:47:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You haven’t wished them dead, but then most racists don’t wish the other races dead. You have declared them lesser people. Saying the parents don’t care about their children is _absolutely_ declaring them lesser people. If someone says “black people don’t care about their children”, then someone just said something racist about black people. Palestinians are not a race of people. What don’t you understand about the word RACIST? This is a sanctioned war. The consequences of what’s happened rests on the people who approved of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760/180 "2014-08-23T21:51:18Z")
It’s also more than a little annoying to hear repeated assertions that “the Palestinians support Hamas”. Yes Hamas won an election. Eight years ago, and they cancelled elections since then. Furthermore, the most recent wide scale polling done in Gaza before Israel’s recent invasion found that Hamas is wildly unpopular. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-returns-holocaust-medal/695760.md?page=10)