# Man shoots prowler, finds out he killed his son **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453 "2012-10-02T03:42:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/41 "2012-10-02T15:15:48Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > When you have a gun, you have a responsibility to fire responsibly. I think retreating from an assailant is a responsible thing to do, and should be done. Congratulations: while you were busy turning and building up speed, your knife-wielding assailant - who was already charging at full speed - has closed the gap and plunged his knife into your lung. You’re going to die. > [@the lone cashew](#): > > This is stupid, a waste of time, and I am done. > [@the lone cashew](#): > > I see that you’re being deliberately obtuse and are not worth responding to. OK…why are you still in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/42 "2012-10-02T15:16:24Z")
He was just firing a warning shot. Into his CHEST. I think it’s a fairly reasonable assumption that when it’s dark, your confused and perhaps feeling threatened or nervous while holding a loaded gun (probably on a hair trigger), your first instinct is to fire it at someone in a ski mask coming at you. Maybe he was hopped up on bath salts, or was running forward to say, “Hey dad, it’s just me! I was just breaking looking for some Vicod–BANG!” Either way, paranoia tends to grip mind and trigger much more than a clear head. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/43 "2012-10-02T15:17:28Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Listen, I’m no fan of guns, but someone wielding a knife can close even a significant distance in mere seconds, faster than someone can either walk backwards or turn their back on their apparent attacker and try to run. > > Fortunately for your judgement, the dad gets to second-guess everything from that decision to how he raised his son, for the rest of his life. I have had some training in defense against edged weapons. The magic number always given is 21. If the assailant is within 21 feet you are in grave danger. I have seen it demonstrated over and over that someone with a knife will be able to stab you before you get your gun out of the holster if they are within 21 feet. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/44 "2012-10-02T15:20:55Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > OK…why are you still in this thread? I was just about to post the same thing. **cashew** , go be dismissive somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/45 "2012-10-02T15:27:47Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > When you have a gun, you have a responsibility to fire responsibly. Well, he hit his target and not an innocent bystander so it sounds like a responsible shot to me. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/46 "2012-10-02T18:21:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I have had some training in defense against edged weapons. The magic number always given is 21. If the assailant is within 21 feet you are in grave danger. I have seen it demonstrated over and over that someone with a knife will be able to stab you before you get your gun out of the holster if they are within 21 feet. Sure. Especially if you’re still fumbling with the tape measure. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/47 "2012-10-02T18:30:15Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > So he was willing to shoot _someone else’s_ son, but things are different since it turned out to be his own son? What the fuck? Of course things are different because it was his own son. The fellow in the linked story was a human being, and we’re wired to care more about persons who are closely related to us than others. It’s disingenuous to pretend that’s even surprising, much less wrong. > [@kayaker](#): > > If someone comes at me “in a threatening manner” armed with a knife, and if I have a gun in my hand, I’d consider the gun as my last line of defense. Perhaps **the lone cashew** is Wolverine or Superman, neither of whom have much to fear from a knife. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/48 "2012-10-02T19:00:53Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Sure. Especially if you’re still fumbling with the tape measure. I was thinking that myself. I wouldn’t know 21 feet from 22 feet to save my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/49 "2012-10-02T19:08:28Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I have had some training in defense against edged weapons. The magic number always given is 21. If the assailant is within 21 feet you are in grave danger. I have seen it demonstrated over and over that someone with a knife will be able to stab you before you get your gun out of the holster if they are within 21 feet. Comes from the [Tueller Drill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill). And the 1983 magazine [article](http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm) where Dennis Tueller brings it to public attention for the first time. As **Loach** points out, it’s really hard for a shooter to react fast enough to stop a determined knife-wielding assailant at close range. Especially if the shooter only has a handgun. Consequently, if the person with the knife is within 20 feet or so (I think we can keep the tape measure in the toolbox.), s/he constitutes an imminent threat of deadly harm. What a tragic accident. Frankly, even if the dad knew it was his child, I’m not sure he shouldn’t have still shot him. The kid should be able to recognize—assuming it’s lit enough and they’re close enough—that it’s _his dad_ that he’s charging with a knife. Why shouldn’t dad be able to infer that his kid recognizes that it’s him, is still trying to stick him despite that, and shoot the kid to try and prevent getting stabbed? Pretty sure if I recognized my son coming at me with a knife, I’d freeze enough that I’d have gotten stuck though. Who can rapidly decide to shoot their own flesh and blood? Like in most self-defense cases, the specific facts are going to determine fault and, if applicable, negligence. We’re not likely to get the specific facts from a news article. Horrible story. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/50 "2012-10-02T19:18:24Z")
I’ve been following this story for a few days now. It’s pretty terrible. The father has been crying and throwing up and is virtually inconsolable. It turns out the father adopted the boy and his sister four years ago when their father was being sent off to prison and they were about to go to an orphanage. The dad and his wife also have three other children. IIRC, the man had bruises on his head too, which suggest that he may have been physically attacked but the spokespeople wouldn’t address that issue. A terrible tragedy all around for everyone involved. None of those people’s lives will be the same for a very long time, if ever. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/51 "2012-10-02T19:19:20Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > As **Loach** points out, it’s really hard for a shooter to react fast enough to stop a determined knife-wielding assailant at close range. Especially if the shooter only has a handgun. Consequently, if the person with the knife is within 20 feet or so (I think we can keep the tape measure in the toolbox.), s/he constitutes an imminent threat of deadly harm. I wouldn’t know from personal experience. But I used to hang out on a message board for RPGers. Quite a few of them have experience fighting with (non-lethal) medieval weapons. One guy was describing how definding yourself with only a bow against someone charging at you with a sword can be really unnerving. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/52 "2012-10-02T19:57:10Z")
> [@the lone cashew](#): > > I think I understand where Sailboat is coming from. > > Responsible people do not fire a gun at someone until it is the very last line of defense. That’s why there are laws against this kind of thing, shooting at someone who is NOT inside the home and options exist to retreat and get away. If the firearm had been used as a last line of defense then no one’s son would not have been shot. Well, not just that. I talked to an adherent of a minority religion at one point, and he maintained that if you are willing to use a certain degree of force or punishment against someone, you must _also_ be willing to use it against your own children, in similar circumstances, or you are _immoral_. Many people in the conversation expressed horror, and said that it’s normal and natural to think one’s OWN child was misbehaving for some fixable reason, and that they would go easy on their own child. But the religious person steadfastly – and, I think, righteously – maintained that if you are not willing to see it done to your own child, you must not do it to someone else’s child. Some people interpreted this as savagery toward his own children, but I think he was advocating mercy toward everyone’s children – or at least even-handedness. In this case, I assume the father now wishes he’d done anything other than pull the trigger, even if he’d gotten stabbed. But whoever the masked person turned out to be, he was surely _somebody’s_ son (or daughter), and _someone_ would be wishing for a different outcome today. I know it’s a hard world, and I feel sorry for this guy. But there are consequences to killing, even in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/53 "2012-10-02T20:08:06Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I know it’s a hard world, and I feel sorry for this guy. But there are consequences to killing, even in self-defense. Yeah, I’m pretty sure the man in this instance understands that, but you could suggest someone go preach to him about the morality of defending your own life against an unknown armed intruder, if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/54 "2012-10-02T21:24:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, not just that. I talked to an adherent of a minority religion at one point, and he maintained that if you are willing to use a certain degree of force or punishment against someone, you must _also_ be willing to use it against your own children, in similar circumstances, or you are _immoral_. Many people in the conversation expressed horror, and said that it’s normal and natural to think one’s OWN child was misbehaving for some fixable reason, and that they would go easy on their own child. But the religious person steadfastly – and, I think, righteously – maintained that if you are not willing to see it done to your own child, you must not do it to someone else’s child. Some people interpreted this as savagery toward his own children, but I think he was advocating mercy toward everyone’s children – or at least even-handedness. > > In this case, I assume the father now wishes he’d done anything other than pull the trigger, even if he’d gotten stabbed. But whoever the masked person turned out to be, he was surely _somebody’s_ son (or daughter), and _someone_ would be wishing for a different outcome today. > > I know it’s a hard world, and I feel sorry for this guy. But there are consequences to killing, even in self-defense. I understand this argument, and I think it’s internally consistent. I still think it’s wrong. No, scratch that; I still disagree with it. Here’s why. I’m willing to kill someone in protection of myself. But not my own child, because _my child’s life is more valuable to me than my own life is_. If my son had lived to grow up, he’d be in his early twenties now, old enough for such a situation to be plausible (though hopefully he’d have more sense than the dead kid in the news story). I can easily imagine making the decision to use deadly force against the masked figure approaching me with a knife with evidently felonious intent, and I think I’d be just as devastated as the father in the story, even though (assuming the facts given us are correct) I do not believe he did anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/55 "2012-10-02T22:13:25Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I was thinking that myself. I wouldn’t know 21 feet from 22 feet to save my ass. Well, that’s merely because you’re thinking in the wrong units. Instead, picture a villain not at 21 ft. away from you, but at 1 sr. away (stab radius). ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/56 "2012-10-02T23:04:56Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Well, that’s merely because you’re thinking in the wrong units. Instead, picture a villain not at 21 ft. away from you, but at 1 sr. away (stab radius). Its simple. If he stabs you its 21 feet. If you shoot him its 22. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/57 "2012-10-03T03:25:38Z")
Sailboat’s “adherent” friend seems to be following the Kantian categorical imperative, while Skald would find support among sociobiologists (“I’d lay down my life for two brothers, or eight cousins…”, or whatever it is). ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/58 "2012-10-03T13:10:59Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Its simple. If he stabs you its 21 feet. If you shoot him its 22. I am going to construct a tape measure based on that unit of measurement. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/59 "2012-10-03T17:02:02Z")
It’s a really sad congruence of events. I feel like I really want to throw the blame on someone but I can’t find anyone blameworthy. At least not yet. We have only the current news story to go on, and it doesn’t have much detail. I hope later some facts will come to the surface so we can make sense of this mess. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453/60 "2012-10-03T17:07:52Z")
After work last night, I paced off seven yards (21 feet) from a dead tree. After a few practice throws, I was able to stick my EDC knife five consecutive throws with little difficulty. ETA: [The knife, Kershaw Tremor. $12.99 via Woot](http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=597) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shoots-prowler-finds-out-he-killed-his-son/636453.md?page=4)