# Man shot by Armed Police on Tube **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 22, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614 "2005-07-22T10:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/21 "2005-07-22T16:21:35Z")
Just to clarify that further, don’t forget that Cops in the UK don’t carry guns. Armed Police are normally specialist units highly trained in weaponry - hence the reference to them as “Marksmen.” Even if these guys turn out to be undercover cops who aren’t in one of these units, the natural assumption of the news agencies would have been that they were. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/22 "2005-07-22T17:46:48Z")
I can imagine these cops about to grab this guy and thinking–“He’s at the turnstile! We’ve got him now…! WAIT! He jumped right over it! Didn’t see that coming!” 😕 Did they find anything on the guy or not? Do we know yet? There’s some eye-and-ear-witness accounts [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4703867.stm) on the Beeb’s feedback page, and they’re pretty confusing. Somebody yelled “Get on the floor” but I don’t know if it was the agents yelling at the suspect, one member of the public shouting at everybody else not knowing the gunmen were agents, the suspect yelling as he brandished a weapon at the agents, or what. Was the suspect armed? I think he was, otherwise I don’t know why they’d take him down. Still very mysterious. I don’t think this has ever happened in NYC except maybe in the middle of the night during the crack epidemic. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/23 "2005-07-22T18:22:30Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > I don’t know why they’d take him down. Perhaps they thought he was trying to detonate an explosive on his person. And hey, they shoot you in New York for getting out your wallet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/24 "2005-07-22T18:31:09Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > I don’t think this has ever happened in NYC except maybe in the middle of the night during the crack epidemic. And even then, it was in the middle of the night without witnesses, not at midday. **IF** things went down as the witness described > [@](#): > > “They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He’s dead,” [witness Mark Whitby](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/) told the British Broadcasting Corp. London cops have to go back to Summary Execution class. Maybe things move slower over there but in the US a police spokesman would have made a statement whether or not the guy was carrying a bomb by now. It’s been what, seven hours? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/25 "2005-07-22T18:49:21Z")
Heh. Yes, but I thought at that point what you’d do is make sure you grabbed his hands first, so they couldn’t push the button. I think that’s what the Israelis do–then they take off backpacks, etc., and check under the clothes. I’d expect “Lemme see the hands! NOW!” in a Cockney accent to have rung out over the station first. If they immobilized the guy and then shot I’d expect he had a detonator or weapon right in his hands. But if so why haven’t we heard about it? And the Scotland Yard press conference, asking for help with the four photographed suspects from yesterday, was AFTER is this guy was dead, so was he one of the main four or not? One was fat, one was nearly bald with a beard, one was very dark-skinned, and the other I can’t tell but he may have been clean-shaven, so you’d think they’d know which one they’d just gotten. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_loblaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@bob\_loblaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_loblaw)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/26 "2005-07-24T09:14:22Z")
[observer / guardian](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1535226,00.html) > [@](#): > > A young Brazilian man, living and working in London as an electrician, emerged last night as the innocent victim shot dead by police in their hunt for the suicide bombers targeting the capital. > […] > In its first statement yesterday, the Metropolitan Police Service expressed ‘regret’ over his death. > > ‘We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday, 21 July 2005,’ it said. ‘For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police service regrets.’ > > Downing Street and Home Office sources last night declined to comment. But Ken Livingstone, London’s Mayor, said the ‘human tragedy’ should be laid at the door of the terrorists. and it’s all the terrorists’ fault… again. no, not ever the fault of the fucking police, who cold-bloodedly kill a man, just because he was brown and running - from plainclothes cops brandishing guns, who likely did not identify themselves clearly "[He said his cousin had lived in London legally for three years and was heading to his job as an electrician when he was killed. Another cousin, Aleide de Menezes, said Jean Charles de Menezes spoke English very well and would have understood police instructions, CBN radio reported.]([http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200507/s1420993.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200507/s1420993.htm)). and hello – the bombings took place on both subway & bus, yet the cops followed menezes from a flat, over a bus trip, then killed him after he boarded a train? after he was already pinned / restrained by other other officers? [He was followed by a surveillance team as he caught a bus to Stockwell Tube station where police told him to stop. According to witnesses, he tried to get on a train when he was shot five times in the head by an officer. London police chief Sir Ian Blair said on Friday that the shooting was ‘directly linked’ to anti-terror operations. But the Scotland Yard have said, “We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by the police on Friday, July 22, although he is still subject to formal identification.]([http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul242005/index542432005724.asp](http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul242005/index542432005724.asp)) [“I saw a chap run on to the train,” Whitby said. “He was running so fast he half sort of tripped. He was being pursued by three guys. One had a black handgun in his hand.” “As he sort of went down, two of them sort of dropped on to him to hold him down, and the other one fired. I heard five shots.”]([http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/23/london.tube/index.html)) ---
**Author:** ![qubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f07891/32.png) [@qubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qubed)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/27 "2005-07-24T10:23:03Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > I would like to point out that no one has ever been shot by unarmed police. Carry on. What if the policeperson used his/her feet? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/28 "2005-07-24T11:48:29Z")
Don’t forget, he was wearing clothing that was inappropriate for the weather. Add that to your list of things to never, ever do. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/29 "2005-07-24T12:23:46Z")
In bear country, one of the self-preservation rules when dealing with a grizzly is: **Dinner Runs.** Bear is checking you out wondering what to make of you. If you stand and address the bear directly, either by letting the beast be certain that you are not a bear (maybe, show it your wallet or other positive identification) or that you are not a prey species (by running away and confirming its assumption that it is to be a predator today), you have a much better chance of continuing to have a very good day. I think it’s prudent to deal with cops in the same way. Don’t run from them, don’t act like you have something to hide when they’re addressing you and they’ll probably not get the idea that you need to absorb some rounds. Unfortunately now, brown men in all western countries will be a little more wary of the cops because there’s another incident of someone being permanently detained for what appears to be nothing more than racism. Today I’m glad to be neither a cop, nor a brown man. That’s kinda sad. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/30 "2005-07-24T12:46:54Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I think it’s prudent to deal with cops in the same way. Don’t run from them, don’t act like you have something to hide when they’re addressing you and they’ll probably not get the idea that you need to absorb some rounds. Unfortunately now, brown men in all western countries will be a little more wary of the cops because there’s another incident of someone being permanently detained for what appears to be nothing more than racism. Today I’m glad to be neither a cop, nor a brown man. That’s kinda sad. I agree with you as far as best way to react to police these days. I’m not sure I agree with you on the rest. I don’t want to get into a racial profiling debate but damnit, cops are not clairvoyant. They are on edge, they are trying to save lives in a highly stressfull environment and if you give them cause to run you down, they will. They are human, they fear for their lives and they have families and loved ones they’d like to go home to at the end of the day. If I’m on top of you cuz you’ve given me plenty of cause to chase you down and I’m in fear that you’ll detonate a bomb and take me with you, I’m going to do everything I can to keep that from happening. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/31 "2005-07-24T12:53:05Z")
The problem with not running away from the police is that these guys were in plainclothes brandishing weapons. If I’m walking in a crowded public area, and a guy in street clothes starts yelling at me, why should I stop? If that guy pulls out a gun, no #$%^ing way am I gonna stop moving. If it’s 3 or 4 guys in street clothes now chasing me with guns out, you better believe I’m gonna run for my life… or pull my own gun out and start shooting. Anyone can yell “Stop! Police!” but until I see a badge or a uniform, what evidence do is there that it’s a cop and not a criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/32 "2005-07-24T13:01:15Z")
**bob loblaw** ’s last link has a picture of Jean Charles de Menenez. He is not a brown-skinned man. As for running from the cops-- these were plain clothes officers who followed the deceased as he left his home, took a bus, and entered the subway _before_ they drew their guns. And I don’t know about you, but in a city where the overwhelming majority of police are unarmed, I might run if I spotted some guys in regular clothes haul out weapons. Third, the cops didn’t realize the building they had under surveillance had multiple apartments. Oy vey. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/33 "2005-07-24T13:08:14Z")
While not “brown-skinned”, he may have appeared “dark” compared to the typical brit. Everyone’s on edge and being “ethnic” looking may be enough to draw attention to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/34 "2005-07-24T13:11:27Z")
In a city that’s just gone through two rounds of bombings, it’s the last thing that would surprise me. And just because regular cops don’t carry guns, I don’t think I’d assume that police in general don’t have guns or that at a time like this, the streets aren’t swarming with armed undercover police. In fact, I’d fully expect it. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/35 "2005-07-24T13:40:01Z")
He doesn’t look ethnic at all! He looks like my brother with darker hair-- and we come from a long like of Anglo-saxons. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/36 "2005-07-24T14:02:33Z")
Look this is relative. He doesn’t look ethnic to you, he looks ethnic to me. I’ve known brazilians, and brits and I wouldn’t confuse the two…but it’s hardly something I would bet money on…and there’s great variety in both. However people have the ability to tell natives from transplants, again it’s not something I would bet money on, humans are really great at familiarity. The question you have to ask yourself, is if he was blonde and blue-eyed would they have paused a second to be sure, before they plugged him? I don’t know the answer to that question. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/37 "2005-07-24T14:44:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In a city that’s just gone through two rounds of bombings, it’s the last thing that would surprise me. And just because regular cops don’t carry guns, I don’t think I’d assume that police in general don’t have guns or that at a time like this, the streets aren’t swarming with armed undercover police. In fact, I’d fully expect it. That’s easy to say, but a lot harder to do when a few guys in regular clothes have guns drawn and are chasing you. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/38 "2005-07-24T15:04:10Z")
Damn, damn, damn. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/39 "2005-07-24T15:24:37Z")
Alternate ending to this tragedy: ( 5 witnesses report of the blast area that the 5 plain clothes police who were following the bomber were heard to say just before 99 Londoners were killed in another bomb blast today at King’s Cross Station, “ Well, let him go, he is in heavy clothing with a back pack and running from us and fits the report of one of the bombers but since, ya know, we are not sure :: shrug :::.” They reportedly got behind a large column and so were spared romr injury in the blast. ) \*:: I’m quite sure that we all here at the SDMB would be in agreement that this was the proper way for the police to have handled this particular scenario seeing as how this would fit right in with the complaints with how it, AS REPORTED, went down and which we all know are true facts. I think we should send a petition to London’s Scotland Yard and inform them that Americas opinion of them would be much improved if they would henceforth follow these guidelines.:: \* ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614/40 "2005-07-24T20:40:55Z")
Let’s see. :dubious: He was tackled then shot five times? 😕 😕 😕 😕 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-shot-by-armed-police-on-tube/313614.md?page=3)