# Man starts cutting off arm after 12 hours... too soon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497 "2010-06-17T02:29:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/1 "2010-06-17T02:29:31Z")
A man got his arm wedged in a boiler in his basement and was stuck there for two days. He tried to cut his own arm off, but couldn’t get through the nerves. [http://www.courant.com/community/west-hartford/hc-jonathan-metz-0616,0,939659.story](http://www.courant.com/community/west-hartford/hc-jonathan-metz-0616,0,939659.story) This is the part that made me say hmmm… > [@](#): > > He spent the next 12 hours in a semi-crouching position, screaming for help, but no one heard him. Metz — who interrupted his story to warn his audience about its graphic nature — said he began to notice a smell that he realized was his rotting flesh. Here is my factual question: can your arm really start rotting in just 12 hours? Obviously, he must have had some serious lacerations on his arm but that seems incredibly soon to me. The doctors also said that his partial amputation may have saved his life, but that seems like they may have been trying to cushion the blow on this guy. It sounds like he would have lost his arm regardless, but I just can’t imagine it can rot so quickly. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/2 "2010-06-17T12:20:50Z")
Technically any flesh that’s dead will be capable of decomposing immediately, but the onset of gangrene takes a \*minimum \*of 48 hours before it’s noticeable outside of a fluid test. I don’t see why he decided 12 hours was enough time to start cutting his arm off. Aron Ralston waited five days in the desert before he decided to cut his arm off. I’m sorry but unless I see more info I think he’s an idiot that panicked. He knew someone would be by, he was cleaning the house for his parents’ upcoming visit. He had power tools, why not try to cut his way out of the boiler? Once they freed him he’s all right now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/3 "2010-06-17T12:24:21Z")
“An idiot that panicked?”| Man, you guys are a tough audience. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/4 "2010-06-17T12:30:05Z")
It’s the > [@](#): > > semi-crouching position that got to me. Sure I could do 3 days lying down, or even maybe 2 days standing up if I had something to lean against. But not being able to move from a “semi-crouching position” for 12 hours, I might even give a half-hearted attempt to saw the damn thing off. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/5 "2010-06-17T12:30:43Z")
I gave myself a hemicorporectomy one time when I couldn’t unbutton some tight jeans. You can’t understand unless you’ve been there yourself. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/6 "2010-06-17T12:37:19Z")
I’m not called GoodTOJ for a reason **even sven**. I admit it’s easy to armchair quarterback now since it’s not happening to me, I’m just saying just from the info provided I don’t think he had to try and cut his arm off. I really hope for his sake that the arm was already a goner before he grabbed the power tools. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/7 "2010-06-17T12:46:18Z")
IANAD, but I’m pretty sure gas gangrene can start sooner than 48 hours. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/8 "2010-06-17T13:51:23Z")
This happened in my area just a few miles from my house, so it’s gotten a lot of media coverage. I watched the news conference two days ago, and I was very impressed with him. (The video is in the link above.) He’s a very articulate professional–a finance manager who works at Travelers. I didn’t understand how someone could get their arm stuck in a boiler in the first place, but Metz explained that the boiler had sharp metal fins that caught his arm when he reached to get a dropped brush off of his shop vac. As the metal dug into his arm, his arm swelled up, making it impossible to extract his arm. > [@EvilTOJ](#): > > I’m sorry but unless I see more info I think he’s an idiot that panicked. Other than his initial panic at getting stuck, I don’t think he panicked in deciding to cut off his arm. Besides the smell, I heard that he saw black spots appearing on his skin and steadily coming up his arm. :eek: This [site from Columbia University’s Health Service](http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/2152.html) states that gangrene can set in and spread very quickly after blood flow is cut off to part of the body. It also states: > [@](#): > > …gangrene is caused by an infection. Gangrene can happen when a cut or surgical wound becomes infected with bacteria (usually Strep, Staph, or Clostridia). The bacteria can spread under the skin to neighboring areas or through the bloodstream to cause a total body infection. Some of these bacteria make poisons (toxins) that flow into the body, destroying tissues and causing severe illness. These surrounding tissues or infected organs can actually die as a result of the infection. > > You asked how fast gangrene can spread. Unfortunately, it can spread amazingly quickly. …Within a day or so, large areas of tissue need to be surgically removed to prevent the infection from becoming fatal. > [@EvilTOJ](#): > > He knew someone would be by, he was cleaning the house for his parents’ upcoming visit. He had power tools, why not try to cut his way out of the boiler? The news conference video addresses much of this. First off, he had no reason to think that anybody would be coming by anytime soon. Metz stated in the video that his parents weren’t coming to visit until the following week. Also, he stated that while some hacksaw blades were within reach, the actual power tools were not within reach. He was cutting by hand with a couple of little blades. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/9 "2010-06-17T14:40:06Z")
I’d like to see the hole he got stuck in before commenting. If it was sheet metal then it seems like he could have cut that instead of his arm. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/10 "2010-06-17T14:48:27Z")
Edit: And only after posting do I see that **robby** covered this. :smack: > [@EvilTOJ](#): > > I really hope for his sake that the arm was already a goner before he grabbed the power tools. It would have gone a lot smoother for him if he’d actually had power tools. Looks like from the article he only had some blades that were power tool attachments. ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/11 "2010-06-17T16:20:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’d like to see the hole he got stuck in before commenting. If it was sheet metal then it seems like he could have cut that instead of his arm. I found photos here. [http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/arm-5542/4/](http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/arm-5542/4/) (more in the series) Hard to tell exactly what was going on , but I would have tried something, anything before cutting off my arm. Maybe even bending the metal would have made enough room, or even cutting off a chunk of arm that was pinched rather than lobbing the whole thing off. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/12 "2010-06-17T16:42:02Z")
Part of the confusion may be due to the use of the term ‘gangrene’. It can actually refer to two different entities (that many doctors mix up as well). Strictly speaking, gangrene means death of tissue as a result of inadequate blood supply. OTOH, _gas gangrene_ refers to an infection with clostridium bacteria which not only tends to arise in dead or dying tissue (but sometimes not), but also kills the tissue it’s infected as well. Gangrene in the first sense is NOT always a medical emergency. For example, we _often_ see people with diabetes with gangrene of their toes. Therapy sometimes consists of just waiting for the dead toe(s) to fall off(!). If the dead, gangrenous tissue gets infected, especially if it’s infected by clostridium, it then _is_ a medical emergency. The infection can spread almost in front of your eyes, certainly over hours. Death can occur in as little as six hours. The issue is further complicated by the realization that even uninfected dead tissue can stink, and that infections other than the immediately life-threatening clostridial ones can also stink to high heaven. So, not an obvious choice, especially for a layman who’s alone, afraid, and probably panicked. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/13 "2010-06-17T16:58:56Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Part of the confusion may be due to the use of the term ‘gangrene’. It can actually refer to two different entities (that many doctors mix up as well). > > Strictly speaking, gangrene means death of tissue as a result of inadequate blood supply. OTOH, _gas gangrene_ refers to an infection with clostridium bacteria which not only tends to arise in dead or dying tissue (but sometimes not), but also kills the tissue it’s infected as well. > > Gangrene in the first sense is NOT always a medical emergency. For example, we _often_ see people with diabetes with gangrene of their toes. Therapy sometimes consists of just waiting for the dead toe(s) to fall off(!). > > If the dead, gangrenous tissue gets infected, especially if it’s infected by clostridium, it then _is_ a medical emergency. The infection can spread almost in front of your eyes, certainly over hours. Death can occur in as little as six hours. > > The issue is further complicated by the realization that even uninfected dead tissue can stink, and that infections other than the immediately life-threatening clostridial ones can also stink to high heaven. > > So, not an obvious choice, especially for a layman who’s alone, afraid, and probably panicked. Ahh, this is what I was looking for. I can fully support sawing off your arm to keep from dehydrating to death, but the idea that he was somehow protecting himself from an Evil Dead-like infection working its way up the arm seemed a little unreal (especially in such a short time-frame). Can you get gas gangrene just from the tissue dying off or does there need to be an outside source of clostridium? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-starts-cutting-off-arm-after-12-hours-too-soon/543497/14 "2010-06-17T17:45:02Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Can you get gas gangrene just from the tissue dying off or does there need to be an outside source of clostridium? Mostly, it gets introduced from outside (with soil being a classic source), but you can also get clostridium from your own intestine if a) you happen to be carrying it there and b) there’s even a microscopic perforation of the intestinal wall (which occurs sometimes in bowel cancer as in [this illustrative case](http://www.casesjournal.com/content/1/1/300) or rarely from diverticulosis).