# Man tells Cheney "Your policies in Iraq are reprehensible." SS arrests him. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 7, 2006, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568 "2006-10-07T00:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/101 "2006-10-10T19:14:12Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Second, in light of previous instances of demonstrator being herded into holding areas, people with non-Bush-worshipping shirts [ejected](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1015-06.htm) from events with [varying degrees of vigor](http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14041) and so forth, why isn’t it reasonable to believe that the SS would arrest someone for telling the Veep they find his policies reprehensible? I believe in your bailiwick that’s what’s known as pattern evidence. [/QUOTE] There’s a huge difference between “campaign officials” as your link indicates were responsible for the incident you mention, and Secret Service agents. The former can and often do act completely idiotic; the latter would - I expect - understand what’s required for an arrest. And that’s a second important difference: being ejected from a specific event is quite different from being arrested. There is no constitutional right to attend a campaign rally; a candidate has every right to regulate the people and the attire that attend his event. There _IS_ a constitutional right to not be arrested except upon probable cause. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/102 "2006-10-10T19:20:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Considering that assault does not require touching at all I did not know that! I knew that aggressive or threatening speech can be illegal in some contexts, but I wasn’t aware that it could fall under the legal definition of “assault” all by itself. Hmm. Thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/103 "2006-10-10T19:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] There’s a huge difference between “campaign officials” as your link indicates were responsible for the incident you mention, and Secret Service agents. … [/QUOTE] Okay, how about [these anti-Bush t-shirt wearing folks](http://www.aclu-wv.org/Newsroom/PressReleases/07_15_04.htm) being ejected from a Bush rally? > [@](#): > > … According to city officials, the arresting officers were acting under the direction of the Secret Service. … Yes, the local police have to do the dirty work but it’s at the direction of the SS. Who’s directing the SS? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/104 "2006-10-10T19:38:47Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] Yes, the local police have to do the dirty work but it’s at the direction of the SS. Who’s directing the SS? [/QUOTE] Himmler? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/105 "2006-10-10T19:40:20Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] … There is no constitutional right to attend a campaign rally; a candidate has every right to regulate the people and the attire that attend his event. … [/QUOTE] With all due awe, whaaa? One would certainly _assume_ so, since we are but lowly laypersons, we would assume that political activity is pretty much protected, in all its forms, wondrous and weird. Has there been some ruling in this regard, or is this the Constitution according to Bricker? The right to express your opinion is protected, but you can’t do it at a particular place and time if somebody would prefer that you didn’t? Wouldn’t that somebody have to have some sort of legal authority to do so? So I mount a soap box on the corner and begin excoriating…oh, I don’t know, Bush, I guess, good as any…and someone comes along and begins to disagree with me, I can have him arrested? Like, if he’s wearing a tie? ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/106 "2006-10-10T19:56:47Z")
PS. [QUOTE=Bricker] … There is no constitutional right to attend a campaign rally; a candidate has every right to regulate the people and the attire that attend his event. … [/QUOTE] The Charleston, WV event wasn’t a campaign rally. > [@](#): > > The rally was billed as an official presidential visit and was open to the public. It was a Fourth of July. Irony anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/107 "2006-10-10T19:58:35Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] There’s a huge difference between “campaign officials” as your link indicates were responsible for the incident you mention, and Secret Service agents. The former can and often do act completely idiotic; the latter would - I expect - understand what’s required for an arrest. And that’s a second important difference: being ejected from a specific event is quite different from being arrested. There is no constitutional right to attend a campaign rally; a candidate has every right to regulate the people and the attire that attend his event. There _IS_ a constitutional right to not be arrested except upon probable cause. [/QUOTE] You didn’t even read both links, did you? From the [second link again](http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=14041): > [@Associated Press](#): > > A couple **arrested for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts** to the president’s July 4 appearance at the West Virginia Capitol filed a federal lawsuit yesterday alleging their First Amendment rights were violated. > > Nicole and Jeff Rank **were removed from the event in handcuffs** after revealing T-shirts with President Bush’s name crossed out on the front. Nicole Rank’s shirt had the words “Love America, Hate Bush” on the back and Jeff Rank’s had “Regime change starts at home” on the back. > > [Charleston WV Mayor Danny] Jones, a Republican, has said the police officers who arrested the Ranks **were told to do so by Secret Service agents**. > > Bush’s appearance in West Virginia was an official visit and **not a campaign event**. (Emphases added) So yeah, you’re right, there’s a _world_ of difference between the Cheney incident and the one I noted. Of course the SS denies that they have any involvement in any of these arrests that they’ve ordered. Because all of the local cops who’ve said that they’ve moved protestors and arrested dissenters were all lying when they said the SS told them to. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/108 "2006-10-10T20:07:12Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I mean, seriously, how on earth could they have thought this was the right thing to do or that any “good” could possibly come from arresting this guy? It just makes no sense. [/QUOTE] Sorry I missed this before, John. > [@](#): > > “Originally, he was going to be charged with assault because [the information we got from Secret Service was that he had pushed the vice president](http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4438107). We learned later that it had been only verbal.” > [@](#): > > Howards and his son walked over and told Cheney that his policies in Iraq are “reprehensible.” [Howards said he may have touched Cheney on the elbow or shoulder](http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4436043), like others in the crowd. What I’ve heard is the Vice President snarled _that’s the guy who pushed me_ when Howards came back for another piece of the action. ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/109 "2006-10-10T20:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] … yammerhead … [/QUOTE] Recently read some Heinlein, **ETF**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/110 "2006-10-10T20:28:25Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] With all due awe, whaaa? One would certainly _assume_ so, since we are but lowly laypersons, we would assume that political activity is pretty much protected, in all its forms, wondrous and weird. Has there been some ruling in this regard, or is this the Constitution according to Bricker? The right to express your opinion is protected, but you can’t do it at a particular place and time if somebody would prefer that you didn’t? Wouldn’t that somebody have to have some sort of legal authority to do so? So I mount a soap box on the corner and begin excoriating…oh, I don’t know, Bush, I guess, good as any…and someone comes along and begins to disagree with me, I can have him arrested? Like, if he’s wearing a tie? [/QUOTE] This is why events get permits. If your event has a permit, you’re entitled to be protected from other people yelling louder than you are. If you stand on your soapbox and start yelling about how Bush is teh suxxor, I can stand on mine, with a megaphone, and ten of my friends and out-yell you. That’s great for my First Amendment exercise; not so great for you. If you have a permit for your event, you can get the cops to haul me and my buddies away, at least far enough to not stop your speech. Of course, I’m free to get a permit for tomorrow and express my views as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/111 "2006-10-10T20:34:20Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Of course the SS denies that they have any involvement in any of these arrests that they’ve ordered. Because all of the local cops who’ve said that they’ve moved protestors and arrested dissenters were all lying when they said the SS told them to. [/QUOTE] Let them say it under oath, identifying the specific officer that gave them their directions, and it’ll be far more credible than, “Uh, yeah, the Secret Service told me to.” However, your point regarding the type of event is well-taken; I missed that line about the event being an official visit as opposed to a campaign event. As an official visit, the rules should be content-neutral – you can certainly ask T-shirt wearers to leave if you’re enforcing a ban on T-shirts or even on political T-shirts, but you cannot kick out a particular political message (unless you can show a security concern). ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/112 "2006-10-10T20:40:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] … As an official visit, the rules should be content-neutral – you can certainly ask T-shirt wearers to leave if you’re enforcing a ban on T-shirts or even on political T-shirts, but you cannot kick out a particular political message (unless you can show a security concern). [/QUOTE] Perhaps but irrelevant. This point was floated at the time and quickly shot down. There were several pro-Bush t-shirts in the crowd and the wearers were not stopped, questioned, or arrested. I don’t have a cite yet. The Charleston event occurred 3.35 miles from my home (according to Google Earth) and it was big new here. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/113 "2006-10-10T20:44:01Z")
Is it really _that_ hard for the Bush apologists to simply swallow their pride and admit that their candidates do some rather indefensible things? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/114 "2006-10-10T20:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] Perhaps but irrelevant. This point was floated at the time and quickly shot down. There were several pro-Bush t-shirts in the crowd and the wearers were not stopped, questioned, or arrested. I don’t have a cite yet. The Charleston event occurred 3.35 miles from my home (according to Google Earth) and it was big new here. [/QUOTE] That was bad. I’m not sold that the Secret Service was responsible, but whoever did it was acting wrongly. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/115 "2006-10-10T20:56:53Z")
Much as I enjoy roasting Busch and Co., I don’t think we can really blame them for this unless we have reason to believe that Cheney specifically requested the arrest, described the encounter as “assault”, etc. Given the preposterously blatant nature of the story, and the fact that it seems fairly isolated, I think it far more likely that either: (1) (most likely) some miscommunication occurred within the Secret Service, and they just plain screwed up or (2) (less likely) the guy is lying out of his ass, and was much more verbally assaultive, bordering on fighting words, but there’s no proof than (3) Cheney randomly decided, after all this time, to have some guy arrested, despite the fact that it would have been obvious to His Evilness that what would end up happening is in fact precisely what ended up happening. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/116 "2006-10-10T21:01:42Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] Much as I enjoy roasting Busch and Co., I don’t think we can really blame them for this unless we have reason to believe that Cheney specifically requested the arrest, described the encounter as “assault”, etc. Given the preposterously blatant nature of the story, and the fact that it seems fairly isolated, I think it far more likely that either: (1) (most likely) some miscommunication occurred within the Secret Service, and they just plain screwed up or (2) (less likely) the guy is lying out of his ass, and was much more verbally assaultive, bordering on fighting words, but there’s no proof than (3) Cheney randomly decided, after all this time, to have some guy arrested, despite the fact that it would have been obvious to His Evilness that what would end up happening is in fact precisely what ended up happening. [/QUOTE] I completely missed the part about Cheney saying he was pushed, which puts it into a kind of he-said he-said area. I’d like to think that, Cheney being evil and all, he was vastly overreacting to a non-push touch. Even so, it’s definitely less of a completely unjustifiable overreaction on the part of the SS than my original picture of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/117 "2006-10-10T21:04:07Z")
[QUOTE=Daithi Lacha] Recently read some Heinlein, **ETF**? 😃 [/QUOTE] Since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/118 "2006-10-10T21:15:33Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] That was bad. I’m not sold that the Secret Service was responsible, but whoever did it was acting wrongly. [/QUOTE] Yep. It might not have been the Secret Service. Our Republican Mayor said it was but the Chief of Police just said it was the White House. That’s kinda the point here, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/119 "2006-10-10T21:42:41Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Let them say it under oath, identifying the specific officer that gave them their directions, and it’ll be far more credible than, “Uh, yeah, the Secret Service told me to.” [/QUOTE] _snort_ And the Secret Service spokesperson, who is every bit as unsworn as the police officers, is somehow more credible in his denials than is the Republican mayor of Charleston who, one would think, has no interest in making a Republican presidential candidate look bad? > [@rjung](#): > > Is it really that hard for the Bush apologists to simply swallow their pride and admit that their candidates do some rather indefensible things? I assume this is a rhetorical question? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568/120 "2006-10-10T23:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] _snort_ And the Secret Service spokesperson, who is every bit as unsworn as the police officers, is somehow more credible in his denials than is the Republican mayor of Charleston who, one would think, has no interest in making a Republican presidential candidate look bad? [/quote] Burden of proof resides on the person making the case. Yes, he’s more credible in his denials if for no other reason than if both are credited with equal weight, we must believe the denial. That happened two years ago, by the way. Where ARE the sworn statements, the depositions in the lawsuit? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tells-cheney-your-policies-in-iraq-are-reprehensible-ss-arrests-him/375568.md?page=7)