# "Man! Them cats clap on the ONE and the THREE!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 17, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406 "2016-01-17T15:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/21 "2016-01-18T04:55:09Z")
Doesn’t which beat is appropriate to clap on depend on the type of music? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/22 "2016-01-18T05:00:30Z")
I get the theory, and I can hear some difference in the clips that have been posted (especially the one where the beat numbers are labeled as it goes), but I don’t get how someone can just intuitively tell the start and stop of each “measure” when they don’t have sheet music in front of them. If you haven’t been counting from the beginning, how do you know where a measure “starts”? In the clip where the guy plays a 5-beat measure to “fix” the clapping problem, while I can see the labeled numbers, I can’t really _hear_ any difference in what he’s doing. To me it just sounds like he plays a bunch of notes and then suddenly there’s a slight difference in the clapping rhythm. I would never be able to distinguish one measure from another and say “clearly, that measure had 5 notes while the others have 4 notes” just from listening to it. Obviously I’m not a musician. But what is it the musicians are picking up on that I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/23 "2016-01-18T08:54:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Doesn’t which beat is appropriate to clap on depend on the type of music? Absolutely and thanks for mentioning it ! There are types of music where emphasizing 1 and 3 is the right thing to do. Emphasizing 2 and 4 is right in other styles. Actually it gets on my nerves when some people say that emphasizing 1 and 3 is wrong and means that you’ve got no rhythm. Of course you’ve got rhythm if you can keep that beat steady. Now, emphasizing 1 and 3 may be wrong in some contexts but that’s a different issue. The fact that the music that is popular now is usually on 2 and 4 doesn’t mean that it’s all there is. People who spout this nonsense should open their ears. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/24 "2016-01-18T12:07:38Z")
There is a difference between the _beat_ and the _groove._ I would argue most folks can find the beat. What’s different is the groove - as discussed, the rock groove hits the 2 and 4. A classic non-rock example is Brubeck’s Take Five - most everyone can tap along to the beats of the music. But asking them to suss out the 5/4 groove and understand how the musicians swing the groove is much harder. Many folks simply don’t pay attention enough to music to listen for the groove. They are getting the hard 4/4 count right and alternating claps and figure that is enough. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/25 "2016-01-18T15:12:27Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Absolutely and thanks for mentioning it ! > > There are types of music where emphasizing 1 and 3 is the right thing to do. Emphasizing 2 and 4 is right in other styles. Exactly. Classical music, for example, traditionally has the emphasis fall on 1 and 3. Of course, you’re not generally encouraged to clap along at a classical concert! 🙂 Putting the emphasis on 2 and 4 is called “off-beat” or “back beat,” precisely because it emphasizes what are traditionally the “weaker” beats. That technique is fundamental to some of the musical genres that have been most popular over the last few decades–R&B, rock, jazz, and most pop music–but it’s misleading to suggest that it’s the only correct way for the emphasis to fall. It depends on the style and genre of music being played. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/26 "2016-01-18T15:37:16Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I saw the Flying Burrito Brothers live in the 70s, for a concert that was being recorded for a record. After they played a song, they said, “It’s OK to clap along, but clap on the beat” and then played the song again. > > I often clap on 1 and 3, not because I don’t know it, but I like the sound of a clap that isn’t on the beat. Well, the clap _is_ on the beat if you do it that way–you’re just emphasizing the classical Western music strong beats rather than the contemporary popular music back beat, which in classical music are the weaker beats. ETA: Or, um, what was said directly before my post. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/27 "2016-01-18T15:42:52Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Just try to clap along to [Dave Brubeck Quartet - “Unsquare Dance”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDB4K5zCcfk) 😉 It helps to break down the 7/8 into two groups of two and one group of three until you can really start to feel the groove. So try [one-TWO one-TWO one-TWO-THREE :] and see if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/28 "2016-01-18T15:46:09Z")
Polka is an example of a genre where it makes more sense to clap on the 1 and 3. Tejano, too. My father used to principal at a school with a majority Mexican immigrant population. He noticed that this folks had more of a 1-3 tendency than 2-4. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/29 "2016-01-18T16:31:50Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I get the theory, and I can hear some difference in the clips that have been posted (especially the one where the beat numbers are labeled as it goes), but I don’t get how someone can just intuitively tell the start and stop of each “measure” when they don’t have sheet music in front of them. If you haven’t been counting from the beginning, how do you know where a measure “starts”? > > […] > > Obviously I’m not a musician. But what is it the musicians are picking up on that I’m missing? You certainly don’t need the sheet music. I have to say, though, it’s a bit hard to explain and it is somewhat instinctual or just learned through listening to a lot of music, but there’s clues in where the chord changes are (they often happen on the one), where the drum beat is (in most pop music, there’s a kick drum on the one–but there are exceptions, especially if you listen to the Police or reggae-influenced stuff where it’s common to just drop the one), where the repeats are, etc. The easiest way, in pop music, would be to listen to the drums, I’d say. You’re generally assuming four beats to a measure, and the snare is going to usually emphasize the 2 & 4 when it’s not doing a fill (and when it is doing a fill, it usually ends up with it ending on the 1, often with a crash cymbal). ETA: And counting from the beginning isn’t necessarily going to help you, as many songs don’t even start on the one. You cannot assume the first notes in a song are on the one. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/30 "2016-01-18T16:40:55Z")
Hahahahahahhaha ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/31 "2016-01-18T17:47:22Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > “If you’re white, clap out of time”. > > Saw a black comedian with a guitar who worked up a bit on this. > > But yeah, we stupid white folks just cannot clap on time. Speak for yourself, sir! ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/32 "2016-01-18T18:18:32Z")
Not just hard-to-snap-your-fingers-to rhythms, but quarter-tones to boot: [Don Ellis - Turkish Bath](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsNOSewwAM) (and other tunes from that album) as well as other experimenters in the years following Brubeck’s _Time Whatever_ albums. Even Pink Floyd played around with multiple-meter things on [The Dark Side Of The Moon-Pink Floyd 1973 full album](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQlxXPI7gqc) (check out the sheet music on some of those tunes.) ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/33 "2016-01-18T18:40:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It helps to break down the 7/8 into two groups of two and one group of three until you can really start to feel the groove. So try [one-TWO one-TWO one-TWO-THREE :] and see if that helps. But is that a “real” 7/8 or more 2 + 2 + 3/8? The way I hear it, you only have emphasis on **1** in a real 7/8, with perhaps a secondary emphasis somewhere on **3** or **4** , just to break the routine so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/34 "2016-01-18T18:42:44Z")
Does that matter? I am asking sincerely; I don’t know theory. When I hear Take Five, I hear a Waltz+2 groove " 1-2-3 1 1" - almost a Bo Diddley groove. That’s not a “real” 5/4? ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/35 "2016-01-18T18:45:02Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Does that matter? I am asking sincerely; I don’t know theory. When I hear Take Five, I hear a Waltz+2 groove " 1-2-3 1 1" - almost a Bo Diddley groove. That’s not a “real” 5/4? Well, it changes the feel (or the flow, or the groove) of the music. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/36 "2016-01-18T19:28:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It helps to break down the 7/8 into two groups of two and one group of three until you can really start to feel the groove. So try [one-TWO one-TWO one-TWO-THREE :] and see if that helps. I thought that _Unsquare Dance_ was in 7/4? Have I been wrong all these years? You’re parenthetical count makes me think of Blue Rondo, which was 9/8 (interspersed with 4/4, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Tierce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@Tierce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tierce)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/37 "2016-01-18T19:30:44Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Just try to clap along to [Dave Brubeck Quartet - “Unsquare Dance”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDB4K5zCcfk) 😉 And for expert level, try [Pat Metheny Group - First Circle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEmL6tIaYWU)! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/38 "2016-01-18T19:34:03Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Look around you at the next concert where people are attempting to clap in time with the music. See those few people who are not clapping along with the others? Those are people with no sense of rhythm who are clapping on the downbeat. Many musicians discourage audiences from clapping with the music, or one member of the band will do an exaggerated clapping motion to get everybody on the 2 & 4, since for some reason people feel the need to do this. There are also musicians (I think Harry Connick is one)who will throw a hitch into the piece to make it sync up with a particularly musically-impaired audience. I was a white person in an overwhelmingly black gospel choir and don’t know music either, so I pretty much memorized how to clap along with everyone. :smack: Throw in rocking and it was quite a challenge! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/39 "2016-01-18T19:42:46Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Well, it changes the feel (or the flow, or the groove) of the music. The organization of stress within the meter changes the feel, but it’s all real 7/8 as far as I know. What do you have in mind when you refer to your scarequoted “real” 7/8? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406/40 "2016-01-18T19:43:47Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Hahahahahahhaha What was this about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-them-cats-clap-on-the-one-and-the-three/743406.md?page=3)