# Man, this brings tears to muh eyes. Anti-Austerity protests raging in Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471 "2010-09-29T14:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/1 "2010-09-29T14:52:32Z")
I wish we had the stones to do this in America. > [@](#): > > Anti-austerity protests sweep across Europe > > By RAF CASERT, Associated Press Writer > 26 mins ago > > BRUSSELS – Anti-austerity protests erupted across Europe on Wednesday — Greek doctors and railway employees walked out, Spanish workers shut down trains and buses, and one man even blocked the Irish parliament with a cement truck to decry the country’s enormous bank bailouts. > > Tens of thousands of demonstrators marched through the streets of Brussels toward European Union buildings in bright red, green and blue labor union jackets, aiming to reinforce the impact of Spain’s first nationwide strike in eight years. > > Strikes or protests were also taking place Wednesday in Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Slovenia and Lithuania, all aimed at the budget-slashing, tax-hiking, pension-cutting austerity plans that European governments have implemented to try to control their debt. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/2 "2010-09-29T15:00:31Z")
**Le Jacquelope** , I’m deleting most of your OP. Great Debates threads need to start with an idea, not a single sentence and a cut-and-paste of a news article. [From the Registration Agreement:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=423183) > [@SDMB registration agreement as of 12/29/2008](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-registration-agreement-as-of-12-29-2008/406370/1): > > You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by the operator of the SDMB, except as permitted by the “fair use” provisions of the U.S. copyright laws (in general this means brief excerpts only). You agree to abide by the wishes of the board moderators in interpreting and enforcing these rules. Refusal to cooperate with board moderators or to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/3 "2010-09-29T15:07:23Z")
Whether or not one has sympathy for the strikers depends on what you believe the situation is. Is it that the fatcat bankers and financial people got a bailout that the public has to pay for? Or is it that the European public has gotten used to a welfare state their governments simply can’t afford anymore, and they’re howling at being taken off the teat? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/4 "2010-09-29T15:14:46Z")
Brings tears to my eyes too…I haven’t laughed this much in months! 😛 Is the debate whether or not we are all getting teary eyed over this? If so, you have my vote for ‘yes…eyes are definitely streaming here.’ -XT ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/5 "2010-09-29T15:20:41Z")
There’s an entirely different philosophy behind the idea of strikes in general in Europe vs. the U.S. In the U.S. strikes occur by employees against an employer for perceived grievances against the employees. In Europe strikes occur by workers in general against the government for perceived grievances against all of society. Obviously that’s a broad brush, but the point is that the idea of a general strike to protest government actions comes naturally to Europeans, but is a strange idea to Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/6 "2010-09-29T15:23:11Z")
They’ve been at it all summer - Greece was paralysed by a truckers’ strike, France had mass walkouts, and in Britain we tutted loudly and had another cup of tea. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/7 "2010-09-29T15:23:40Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > There’s an entirely different philosophy behind the idea of strikes in general in Europe vs. the U.S. > > In the U.S. strikes occur by employees against an employer for perceived grievances against the employees. > > In Europe strikes occur by workers in general against the government for perceived grievances against all of society. > > Obviously that’s a broad brush, but the point is that the idea of a general strike to protest government actions comes naturally to Europeans, but is a strange idea to Americans. It’s also a broad brush that completely ignores the history of organised labour and strikes in the United Kingdom, the birthplace of voluntarism. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/8 "2010-09-29T15:33:03Z")
If the government doesn’t have enough money to pay for things how are strikes supposed to increase the amount of money the government has? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/9 "2010-09-29T15:35:06Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Whether or not one has sympathy for the strikers depends on what you believe the situation is. Is it that the fatcat bankers and financial people got a bailout that the public has to pay for? Or is it that the European public has gotten used to a welfare state their governments simply can’t afford anymore, and they’re howling at being taken off the teat? No, it’s people not paying taxes. In Greece at least tax evasion and corruption are rampant. > [@](#): > > One of the core issues at the heart of the Greek financial crisis is the enormous reluctance of the Greeks to pay tax. It’s been estimated that the so-called shadow or black economy in Greece represents at least 30% of gross domestic product. > > Average tax payments in Greece should, if tax were paid, be more than 30% of average income. So, when Greece’s current deficit is running at just over 13% of its GDP it’s easy to see that if 30% tax was collected on the 30% shadow economy, then the deficit would fall to about 4% of GDP overnight --very close to the target, which is 3%. In a nutshell, Greece’s problems could be almost solved if only all tax due was paid. > > SOURCE: [Greece's Hat Trick: Tax Collection](http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/14/greece-taxes-debt-opinions-contributors-richard-murphy.html) So no, people were not getting a free ride from government programs that nobody imagined how to pay for. If the Greeks paid their taxes they wouldn’t be in this mess in spite of your worry over the nanny state coddling its lazy masses. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/10 "2010-09-29T15:40:26Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > There’s an entirely different philosophy behind the idea of strikes in general in Europe vs. the U.S. > > In the U.S. strikes occur by employees against an employer for perceived grievances against the employees. > > In Europe strikes occur by workers in general against the government for perceived grievances against all of society. > > Obviously that’s a broad brush, but the point is that the idea of a general strike to protest government actions comes naturally to Europeans, but is a strange idea to Americans. Wait, how often has this actually happened, even by the broadest possible definition of “general strike”? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/11 "2010-09-29T16:01:19Z")
Note that these are all public sector union employees, disrupting public services (paid for by tax money) to get more money for themselves out of the state coffers. This is political leverage that private sector employees do not have. Perhaps unsurprisingly, public sector employees are[heavily overpaid](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2010/08/overpaid_federa.html) compared to equivalent private sector ones. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/12 "2010-09-29T16:02:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, how often has this actually happened, even by the broadest possible definition of “general strike”? I’ll have to look it up but my sense is the French strike practically as a national pasttime. Seems some group or other is striking constantly in France. Not too long ago I recall French farmers striking over changes in French farming policy (which honestly was in desperate need of reworking but the farmers were having none of it). It may have been elsewhere but I recall a picture of a farmer with a cow squirting milk (right out of the cow) at police. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/13 "2010-09-29T16:03:34Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > I wish we had the stones to do this in America. Why would Americans hold demonstrations against “Austerity” when the government is not engaged in austerity measures? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/14 "2010-09-29T16:13:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > I wish we had the stones to do this in America. > > Why would Americans hold demonstrations against “Austerity” when the government is not engaged in austerity measures? I’m guessing Jac has some vague objections to Obama policies. I’ll even hazard a guess Jac harbors a number of misconceptions and misunderstandings about said polices. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/15 "2010-09-29T16:16:41Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Note that these are all public sector union employees, disrupting public services (paid for by tax money) to get more money for themselves out of the state coffers. This is political leverage that private sector employees do not have. Perhaps unsurprisingly, public sector employees are[heavily overpaid](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2010/08/overpaid_federa.html) compared to equivalent private sector ones. Or alternatively the latter are underpaid. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/16 "2010-09-29T16:32:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m guessing Jac has some vague objections to Obama policies. Based on a quick reading of a few of his posts, I don’t think so. He’s not the Tea Party type, if that’s what you’re suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/17 "2010-09-29T16:39:46Z")
Then I’m as curious as RickJay - if such protests happened in the U.S., as Jacquelope apparantly wants, what exactly would they be protesting and against whom would they be directed? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/18 "2010-09-29T16:43:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > Why would Americans hold demonstrations against “Austerity” when the government is not engaged in austerity measures? > > I’m guessing Jac has some vague objections to Obama policies. Perhaps he is being proactive, in case the GOP regains control of one or more houses of Congress and begins to try to reduce the deficit. Or perhaps he objects to the TARP payments, and the GM bailout. Or possibly he is really under the impression that problems of this kind can be fixed with marches and protests. Hard to say unless he returns to defend his position, whatever it might be. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/19 "2010-09-29T16:46:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Perhaps he is being proactive, in case the GOP regains control of one or more houses of Congress and begins to try to reduce the deficit Yep, they’re just gonna keep cutting taxes until it works. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/20 "2010-09-29T16:56:13Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Note that these are all public sector union employees, disrupting public services (paid for by tax money) to get more money for themselves out of the state coffers. This is political leverage that private sector employees do not have. Perhaps unsurprisingly, public sector employees are[heavily overpaid](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2010/08/overpaid_federa.html) compared to equivalent private sector ones. That link is about public wages in the US. What have American public sector wages got to do with the situation in Europe? Also, rather than support your point, it seems to suggest that there is still an ongoing debate about whether or not public service workers actually are overpaid or not. > [@](#): > > Does the public sector get pampered? > > When you control for the differences in characteristics like education and age, the federal government has salaries that are 12 percent higher than similar private sector workers. > You’re aware that some studies have come the opposite conclusion: that federal workers are underpaid. Why are they wrong? > > …The difference is in the methodology. We looked at the same person – based on age, education, all those things – and put him in the federal government or the private sector. The government looked at the same job in the federal government vs. private sector. So depending on methodology, public service workers could be _underpaid_. In the US, of course. [This link (pdf)](http://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/20276/1/dp1041.pdf) is a study of public versus private wages in France, England and Italy. > [@](#): > > In all countries the public sector is found to pay more to low-skilled workers with respect to the private sector, while the reverse is true for highly skilled workers. The effects are more pronounced for females. So no one is vastly underpaid, or overpaid. Sounds like a good system to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=2)