# Man, this brings tears to muh eyes. Anti-Austerity protests raging in Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471 "2010-09-29T14:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/41 "2010-09-29T19:04:52Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > I wish we had the stones to do this in America. > > Anti-Austerity protests would of course require the US to, you know, have some Austerity. Of course we have austerity–securing it for the masses is in the preable to the US Constitution! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/42 "2010-09-29T19:07:43Z")
European governments are much more in control of salaries than the US government is. We’ve had teacher strikes in states where cuts were enacted. That’s a direct parallel. Who knows what would happen in the US if the government decided to change the retirement age to 62. We might have massive anger from all those people who want to keep working until they are 65. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/43 "2010-09-29T19:07:57Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > > > If the government doesn’t have enough money to pay for things how are strikes supposed to increase the amount of money the government has? > > The strikes are intended to force the government to tax the rich and the bankers more instead of making cuts that hurt the working class - the people who had the least amount of say in causing this economic mess. Exactly. This is the point that the right wing American mainstream media continues to ignore. If we are going to praise responsibility, as the teabaggers claim to, then those striking Europeans should be their models. They realize that if they just go along with the status quo, they would be made to suffer and sacrifice for someone else’s greed and recklessness. Hence, the protests. As for the perennial strikes in France, well, how do you think they maintain such a high quality of life for the middle class? It wasn’t enough to win once and sit back. They have to participate in public life constantly in order to prevent the elite from taking hold. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/44 "2010-09-29T19:10:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That’s the point in GREECE…but I don’t think that’s the case in most of those other countries. In Greece, of course, complaining that the rich aren’t paying their taxes is pretty ironic, considering that this seems to be the normal mode for just about everyone… > > (ETA: And how would upping the taxes on the rich help in any case? If they simply made everyone pay the taxes they are supposed too then they wouldn’t be having the issues they are having. Upping the taxes will just mean that there would be more to ignore, no?) > > -XT Using Greece as an example (I know it is not all about Greece in this thread but they are a standout) there is no point in raising taxes no one pays. However, when you want to start squeezing doing it to the poor has a reltively minor effect. > [@](#): > > In 2006, the top 5% of U.S. taxpayers, those with gross annual incomes of at least $153,500, paid about 60% of all income tax collected. In contrast, the 50% of taxpayers with incomes under $32,000, paid less than 3% of the total taxes collected. Taxpayers in the top 1%, those with incomes of $388,800 or more, paid almost 40% of all taxes collected. > > SOURCE: [Joint Committees: Definition, Effect on U.S. Economy](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/taxburden06.htm) That is for the US but I see no reason to suspect it is very different in Greece. So, of the money not coming in the vast majority of it is coming from a relative few (the rich) and the rich won’t budge and want to impose austerity measures they won’t have to suffer on the poor. Make sense to you? And to highlight what we are talking about in Greece: > [@](#): > > ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools. > > So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools. > > \ > > To get more attentive care in the country’s national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as “fakelaki,” Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker. > > \ > > The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all. > > SOURCE: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html) To be clear it does seem most everyone who can in Greece evades taxes, rich and poor. Just saying imposing austerity measures to rebuild the economy hurts less and less the wealthier you are. Everyone should have to take a big bite of the shit sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/45 "2010-09-29T19:11:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > > > Don’t be silly. Republicans don’t cut spending. > > On a related note, I see that here in the good old USofA we have something vaguely equivalent going on this weekend, despite the notable lack of anything resembling austerity in our spending ([cite](http://action.onenationworkingtogether.org/index.php/content/splash/)). Based apparently on the same sort of logic as in Europe. How is a march against hate and divisiveness comparable to protesting bank bailouts? I’m sure that many in the OneNation march might \*sympathize \*with the European strikers, but the purpose of the demonstration is completely different. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/46 "2010-09-29T19:20:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I guess we will see. Someone is going to have to, and sooner rather than later. Historically it’s been the Dems who clean up the messes the elephants leave behind. Once this current downturn is over, we can start that thankless process once again. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/47 "2010-09-29T19:22:02Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Anti-Austerity protests would of course require the US to, you know, have some Austerity. It hasn’t been due to a lack of trying. We’ve had attempts in California by Governor Ahhhnuld to get rid of welfare. Just this last year. The Republicans in Congress fought unemployment extensions this last year. Granted, the latter was Austerity Lite[tm], but then you have Bobby Jindal. > [@sleeping](#): > > Exactly. This is the point that the right wing American mainstream media continues to ignore. If we are going to praise responsibility, as the teabaggers claim to, then those striking Europeans should be their models. They realize that if they just go along with the status quo, they would be made to suffer and sacrifice for someone else’s greed and recklessness. Hence, the protests. > > As for the perennial strikes in France, well, how do you think they maintain such a high quality of life for the middle class? It wasn’t enough to win once and sit back. They have to participate in public life constantly in order to prevent the elite from taking hold. Which perplexes me as to how Sarkozy got into office. Didn’t they know this madman was going to go overboard like he has? Or did the frog forget what the scorpion is? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/48 "2010-09-29T19:29:12Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@griffin1977](#): > > > > Anti-Austerity protests would of course require the US to, you know, have some Austerity. > > It hasn’t been due to a lack of trying. But there’s no point in protesting “trying.” You wondered why Americans don’t protest austerity, and it’s because there is no austerity to protest. You cannot get people to strike against nothing. There has never been a federal budget-cutting effort on par with what some European nations have had to do. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/49 "2010-09-29T19:46:00Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Note that these are all public sector union employees, disrupting public services (paid for by tax money) to get more money for themselves out of the state coffers. This is political leverage that private sector employees do not have. Perhaps unsurprisingly, public sector employees are[heavily overpaid](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2010/08/overpaid_federa.html) compared to equivalent private sector ones. That pile of junk statistics again? I note that another dab of lipstick has been applied to this pig, by arguing that faster promotions represent a pay premium. Even if we stipulate the fact not in evidence (that promotions occur faster in the government than in comparable private-sector jobs), that has no bearing on the question of what pay and benefits package is appropriate for any given position once somebody has reached it ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/50 "2010-09-29T19:50:22Z")
[QUOTE] > [@athelas](#): > > [This link (pdf)](http://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/20276/1/dp1041.pdf) is a study of public versus private wages in France, England and Italy. > > > [@](#): > > > > In all countries the public sector is found to pay more to low-skilled workers with respect to the private sector, while the reverse is true for highly skilled workers. The effects are more pronounced for females. That tracks with studies I’ve seen for the situation in the US (except I don’t know US figures for females specifically). Over the past few decades in the US, government wages have tended downward relative to nongovernment wages as blue-collar support services for government have been contracted out, leaving a larger percentage of the relatively underpaid high-skill government positions. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/51 "2010-09-29T20:07:05Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > I guess we will see. Someone is going to have to, and sooner rather than later. > > Historically it’s been the Dems who clean up the messes the elephants leave behind. And this is not incidental, but by design. Republicans in the 1970s realized that the only way they could effectively shrink government was by deficit spending when they were in power and then demanding a “balanced budget” once the Democrats took over. This has allowed them to prevent Democrats from creating new social programs, and to reward corporate donors by handing out government contracts (during the deficit-causing wars), in a two-birds-with-one-stone strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/52 "2010-09-29T20:10:21Z")
Cmon, the real reason behind many of the posts on this thread is that American conservatives hate Europe with the fire of 10,000 suns for being more liberal than the US, and for having for the most part thriving economies while offering universal health insurance and aid to the poor. It just KILLS American conservatives’ arguments that we cannot afford this and that when progressives can point to Europe and say, “THEY can afford it and are doing all right!” It stands to reason that any economic stumble a Western European government (or “nanny state” as conservatives call them reflexively) would be greeted with heart-stopping joy by American conservatives-- schadenfreude just isn’t the WORD! While these same conservatives conveniently ignore the fact that much of the current worldwide economic downturn was brought about by drastically unregulated banking and financial industries in the US. Really character-revealling, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/53 "2010-09-29T20:29:31Z")
I was under the impression that many public service employees in the US are prevented from striking. Can anyone verify that? I used to wonder why there weren’t as many strikes in the US as there were in Canada. Like in Europe, I just got sort of accustomed to the yearly strike by what ever union was due for a new contract. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/54 "2010-09-29T20:37:29Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] It just KILLS American conservatives’ arguments that we cannot afford this and that when progressives can point to Europe and say, “THEY can afford it and are doing all right!” [/QUOTE] [Not](http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/30/is-social-democracy-a-viable-model-for-the-european-future/) [really](http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/international-invest-guide-obama-sweden-public-downsizing.html), but nice try at projection there. > [@](#): > > Western European per capita income is now about 30 percent below that of the United States and I see the gap widening rather than closing. It is common for the United States rate of productivity growth to be twice as high as that of the core European nations (NB: don’t be fooled by statistics of high average labor productivity levels in some countries, such as France. In part they result from limits on the creation of low-wage jobs and they do not predict good future performance.) The relatively free Ireland continues to boom, but France, Germany, Italy and others have performed poorly. Even the Dutch economic miracle appears to have ended. > > Germany may experience a current blip in growth rates, coming close to three percent over the next year. But this will not sidestep the broader and persistent problem of shrinking populations. Most European birthrates are under the 1.5 mark and it is quite possible that many national populations will be cut in half by 2050. Along the way there will be too many retirees per worker and current European tax rates – already among the highest in the world – will have to rise. Since older populations also tend to be less productive, it is hard to see how Western Europe might reassume world economic leadership or even hold its current relative ground. Nor has the EU, for all its benefits, proven itself a good mechanism for making economic policy; farm subsidies are over 45 percent of the EU budget. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/55 "2010-09-29T20:51:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But there’s no point in protesting “trying.” You wondered why Americans don’t protest austerity, and it’s because there is no austerity to protest. You cannot get people to strike against nothing. > > There has never been a federal budget-cutting effort on par with what some European nations have had to do. I disagree - the Tea Party protested the ATTEMPT to bring universal health care to America and it worked. It is better to protest welfare and unemployment benefits cuts before they get to a Congressional vote than to be out on the street because they’ve been cut and THEN try to protest. An ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure and all that - ESPECIALLY when it comes to cutting unemployment benefit extensions. Imagine if you had to protest that move AFTER your benefits were cut… As for budget-cutting in Europe, most of it has resulted in bond ratings cuts and even worse unemployment. Austerity in Europe hasn’t worked. It also did not work for Japan and it stopped the 1937 Depression-era recovery dead in its tracks in America. Let’s not even get into what Austerity did to screw Ireland… ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/56 "2010-09-29T20:56:06Z")
Pretty funny to see people like the [Greek railway employees](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/business/global/21rail.html) going on strike. The whole world knows perfectly well that they are fat and useless and overpaid. And that Greek doctors are corrupt and on the bribe. Probably fucking useless too. Fuck them. Sack the useless lot of them. These fools all live in nations with gigantic deficits. What they are protesting is that Germany and other nations is no longer going to pay for their excesses. I don’t give a shit if Greece or Spain or Ireland are going to cut expenses or raise the tax to 256% or sell their islands or whatever they come up with, they are not going to get another bail out. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/57 "2010-09-29T21:00:34Z")
Go and look up the financial practices of Greek doctors and tell me if they still deserve to be lionised. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/58 "2010-09-29T21:02:49Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > But there’s no point in protesting “trying.” You wondered why Americans don’t protest austerity, and it’s because there is no austerity to protest. You cannot get people to strike against nothing. > > > > There has never been a federal budget-cutting effort on par with what some European nations have had to do. > > I disagree - the Tea Party protested the ATTEMPT to bring universal health care to America and it worked. It is better to protest welfare and unemployment benefits cuts before they get to a Congressional vote than to be out on the street because they’ve been cut and THEN try to protest. An ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure and all that - ESPECIALLY when it comes to cutting unemployment benefit extensions. Imagine if you had to protest that move AFTER your benefits were cut… Let’s also remember that there is a far-right Deficit Commission that’s going to push for cuts to Social Security and Medicare benefits in order to pay for the banksters’ crisis. Just wait 'til the spin starts on December 2nd. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/59 "2010-09-29T21:06:18Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Cmon, the real reason behind many of the posts on this thread is that American conservatives hate Europe with the fire of 10,000 suns for being more liberal than the US, and for having for the most part thriving economies while offering universal health insurance and aid to the poor. [/QUOTE] Huh…and here I thought it was because liberals are always fawning all over the Euros, wanting to be exactly like they are in all things, and that a lot of the posts in threads like this are to try and put the best spin on things in Europe when they aren’t all beer and skittles. Personally, if I’m one of your ‘conservatives’ I don’t hate Europe with the fire of 10,000 (or even 100…or even 10) suns. Quite the opposite…I like Europe fine. I just have to laugh when the expectations of folks like you come crashing back to reality, and you and they realize that what we have here is a sever case of the grass always being greener somewhere else. My sister was much like this. She loved Europe, loved the idea of Europe, always wanted the US to be just like them, etc etc. So, she and her family made the great leap…moved to Ireland. I think they lasted almost a year before moving back to the US. It’s given her a much better perspective on how things REALLY are in Europe…as opposed to how they look when you go there on vacation, or how they are portrayed by folks in the US who want us to be just like them. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/60 "2010-09-29T21:06:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You cannot get people to strike against nothing. It’s frighteningly easy to manufacture “grass roots” protests against something imaginary. Any two-bit demagogue, or “news” network, can do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=4)