# Man, this brings tears to muh eyes. Anti-Austerity protests raging in Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471 "2010-09-29T14:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/61 "2010-09-29T21:11:34Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > [QUOTE=Evil Captor] > It just KILLS American conservatives’ arguments that we cannot afford this and that when progressives can point to Europe and say, “THEY can afford it and are doing all right!” [Not](http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/30/is-social-democracy-a-viable-model-for-the-european-future/) [really](http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/international-invest-guide-obama-sweden-public-downsizing.html), but nice try at projection there. > [@](#): > > Western European per capita income is now about 30 percent below that of the United States and I see the gap widening rather than closing. It is common for the United States rate of productivity growth to be twice as high as that of the core European nations (NB: don’t be fooled by statistics of high average labor productivity levels in some countries, such as France. In part they result from limits on the creation of low-wage jobs and they do not predict good future performance.) The relatively free Ireland continues to boom, but France, Germany, Italy and others have performed poorly. Even the Dutch economic miracle appears to have ended. > > Germany may experience a current blip in growth rates, coming close to three percent over the next year. But this will not sidestep the broader and persistent problem of shrinking populations. Most European birthrates are under the 1.5 mark and it is quite possible that many national populations will be cut in half by 2050. Along the way there will be too many retirees per worker and current European tax rates – already among the highest in the world – will have to rise. Since older populations also tend to be less productive, it is hard to see how Western Europe might reassume world economic leadership or even hold its current relative ground. Nor has the EU, for all its benefits, proven itself a good mechanism for making economic policy; farm subsidies are over 45 percent of the EU budget. [/QUOTE] Europeans don’t spend nearly as much on healthcare as Americans do–because they have national healthcare. And American \*productivity \*has been rising since the 70s, but \*wages \*have been stagnant. That’s why almost every household now has both parents working, whereas in the 60s a single breadwinner could provide a comfortable existence for the family. > [@](#): > > [Sept. 4, 2006](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5763244) > > Mr. WESSEL: Well, the economy is growing, and unemployment is unusually low by historical standards. But for the typical worker, wages are not going up. The new census bureau numbers to which you refer said that for workers, male workers, who work full-time, year-round, the ones at the middle of the middle of the income distribution, their wages fell last year by 1.8 percent, after adjusting for inflation. And they were actually lower in 2005 than they were back in 1998. > > INSKEEP: Why would somebody’s wages be going down at the same time that company’s are said to be more and more productive? > > Mr. WESSEL: Well, that’s one of the mysteries of our current economic situation. Productivity, the amount of stuff we make for each hour of work, is up. And it’s growing very fast, by historical standards. But wages aren’t. > > So the question is - where’s the money going? And the short answer is, a lot of it is going into profits. And the other is that it is going to workers but it’s not going to all workers. The best-off workers, the ones with the most education or who have sweet contracts with baseball teams or CEOs, their wages actually are going up quite nicely. And they’re getting a widening slice of the pie. The people in the middle, though, are not getting a widening slice of the pie. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/62 "2010-09-29T22:06:59Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Yep, they’re just gonna keep cutting taxes until it works. > > Or spending How are they going to cut spending? Eliminate medicare and social security? Eliminate medicaid? Eliminate defense? > **[2010 United States federal budget | Total spending](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget#Total_spending)** > > Incoming President Barack Obama's budget request for FY 2010 totaled $3.55 trillion and was passed by Congress on April 29, 2009. Percentages in parentheses indicate percentage changes compared to FY 2009. A breakdown of Obama's budget request includes the following expenditures: > 1.Mandatory spending: $2.173 trillion (+14.9%) > $695 billion (+4.9%) – Social Security > $571 billion (+58.6%) – Other mandatory spending > $453 billion (+6.6%) – Medicare > $290 billion (+12.0%) – Medicaid > $164 billion (+18.0... The GOP has gotten called a little on this lately (not nearly as much as they should) because gov. spending is not all waste, despite that being the official line everyone spouts. The GOP has basically said they aren’t touching mandatory spending, but are willing to cut non-defense related discretionary spending. That only frees up $100 billion or so. The Obama health bill cuts the deficit by more than that. The GOP has no idea how to cut the deficit. They will cut some minor programs and pass massive supply side tax cuts, and the deficit will become even bigger. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/63 "2010-09-29T22:10:06Z")
Not that the thread is about US politics, but out of curiosity, how will the Dems cut the deficits, since you say the Republicans can’t or won’t? Increase taxes and…? -XT ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/64 "2010-09-29T22:24:23Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > [Not](http://crookedtimber.org/2006/10/30/is-social-democracy-a-viable-model-for-the-european-future/) [really](http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0803/international-invest-guide-obama-sweden-public-downsizing.html), but nice try at projection there. > > > [@](#): > > > > Western European per capita income is now about 30 percent below that of the United States and I see the gap widening rather than closing. It is common for the United States rate of productivity growth to be twice as high as that of the core European nations (NB: don’t be fooled by statistics of high average labor productivity levels in some countries, such as France. In part they result from limits on the creation of low-wage jobs and they do not predict good future performance.) **The relatively free Ireland continues to boom, but France, Germany, Italy and others have performed poorly**. Even the Dutch economic miracle appears to have ended. Oh yeah, we’re doing fantastic here in Ireland. [cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2010/09/28/can-irelands-crisis-get-any-worse-yes-it-can/) Our “relatively free” economy “continues to boom” alright. [The Irish Financial Crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932010_Irish_financial_crisis) And to say Germany’s economy is performing poorly is just nonsense. Compared to who? This is like sitting around in 1932 saying “America’s GDP for 1928 was the highest yet! We MUST be doing something right!” ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/65 "2010-09-29T22:32:42Z")
And yet, the many people who said that the Great Depression proved that capitalism was a dead end were very much wrong… (Hint: there’s a difference between short- and long-term) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/66 "2010-09-29T22:36:34Z")
Americans should be angling to be more like Canadians, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/67 "2010-09-29T22:52:45Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > And yet, the many people who said that the Great Depression proved that capitalism was a dead end were very much wrong… > > (Hint: there’s a difference between short- and long-term) Capitalism will never die because socialism will always be there to save it. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/68 "2010-09-29T22:57:02Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > Let’s also remember that there is a far-right Deficit Commission that’s going to push for cuts to Social Security and Medicare benefits in order to pay for the banksters’ crisis. Just wait 'til the spin starts on December 2nd. Hear that toot toot sound? That’s the sound of the AARP bearing down on them like the Midnight Express. 😃 > [@carm](#): > > Oh yeah, we’re doing fantastic here in Ireland. [cite](http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2010/09/28/can-irelands-crisis-get-any-worse-yes-it-can/) Our “relatively free” economy “continues to boom” alright. > [The Irish Financial Crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932010_Irish_financial_crisis) Wasn’t Ireland also a sort of tax haven for foreign companies? I mean, not like the (bankrupt) Cayman Islands or Dubai, but still… > [@athelas](#): > > And yet, the many people who said that the Great Depression proved that capitalism was a dead end were very much wrong… > > (Hint: there’s a difference between short- and long-term) Well, it kinda sorta was proof that capitalism was a dead end. It proved to be a dead end for the unregulared laissez-faire BS that reigned before 1929. It brought us Social Security, the FDIC, and a whole host of other things that no self-respecting Capitalist would ever approve of. But then that depends on your definition of Capitalism… ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/69 "2010-09-29T23:13:00Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Wasn’t Ireland also a sort of tax haven for foreign companies? I mean, not like the (bankrupt) Cayman Islands or Dubai, but still… Our corporation tax has been 12.5% for the last twenty years or so. [Here’s a graph comparing it with the rest of the world.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg) It doesn’t give the figures, but Ireland has the lowest rate of the thirty or so countries featured. The UK, by comparison, is at 30% (on the graph anyway, in the last budget they reduced it to 24%) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/70 "2010-09-29T23:34:52Z")
[QUOTE=sleeping] Capitalism will never die because socialism will always be there to save it. [/QUOTE] It’s funny that in general it’s worked out the other way, no? 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/71 "2010-09-29T23:47:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=sleeping] > Capitalism will never die because socialism will always be there to save it. It’s funny that in general it’s worked out the other way, no? 😛 [/QUOTE] “It is better to be poor under socialism than rich under capitalism.” – China Cultural Revolution “I don’t care if it’s a white cat or a black cat. It’s a good cat so long as it catches mice.” – Deng Xiaoping … and now China’s capitalist reforms are eating our lunch. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/72 "2010-09-29T23:51:23Z")
Well, I don’t know if they are eating our lunch or not, but certainly China has done better, economically speaking, under their current quasi-capitalist system, than they did under Maoist Communism. Personally, I think if they can ever make the additional steps to get rid of all of the Communist/Feudalistic remnants and move towards a more Democratic system they really might eat our collective lunch. Of course, doing that won’t exactly be easy, so… -XT ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/73 "2010-09-30T00:22:33Z")
Kind of off topic, but China’s still extremely poor by per capita GDP standards - still lower than El Salvador, for instance. So yeah _collectively_ it may end up larger than the US in the near future (when its per capita GDP is 1/3 that of the US), but in terms of quality of life the American Way still has a good bit of life left. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/74 "2010-09-30T00:48:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=sleeping] > Capitalism will never die because socialism will always be there to save it. It’s funny that in general it’s worked out the other way, no? 😛 -XT [/QUOTE] Well, yeah, that’s the point. Most self-proclaimed believers in capitalism and the free-market are very quick to abandon their principles once the shit hits the fan. FDR’s liberal (not really socialist) policies pulled the country out of a depression caused by the free-wheeling pro-Wall St 20s. And now, the banks gladly grabbed all those TARP billions and Treasury trillions, after 30 years of deregulation (culminating in 8 years of fiscal insanity). Of course, the difference this time around is that it’s only socialism for the rich; no foreclosure moratoria, rent-to-own conversions, adequate jobs programs, infrastructure projects, funding for green energy, etc. _That’s_ why people are furious, both here in the U.S. and in Europe. The message is simple: if the government can afford to rescue the financial elites, it should be able to help the working people who are the victims of those elites’ recklessness. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/75 "2010-09-30T02:43:58Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > The strikes are intended to force the government to tax the rich and the bankers more instead of making cuts that hurt the working class - the people who had the least amount of say in causing this economic mess. > > Exactly. This is the point that the right wing American mainstream media continues to ignore. If we are going to praise responsibility, as the teabaggers claim to, then those striking Europeans should be their models. They realize that if they just go along with the status quo, they would be made to suffer and sacrifice for someone else’s greed and recklessness. Hence, the protests. > > As for the perennial strikes in France, well, how do you think they maintain such a high quality of life for the middle class? It wasn’t enough to win once and sit back. They have to participate in public life constantly in order to prevent the elite from taking hold. I’m not a wealthy European plutocrat, but if I were, I’d wait out the riots in my villa in Gstaad; or if that’s too close to the rioters, Tahiti. I’d think the only people the strikers are hurting is their fellow middle class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/76 "2010-09-30T02:46:50Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > _That’s_ why people are furious, both here in the U.S. and in Europe. The message is simple: if the government can afford to rescue the financial elites, it should be able to help the working people who are the victims of those elites’ recklessness. Of course “the government” also rescued the unions and insulated government employees from the wage shocks felt by private sector workers. I see the divide as not between “The Rich” and “The Poor,” but rather between the politically well connected and the politically unpopular. Public sector unions and Goldman bigwigs alike benefit from political connections; entrepreneurs and non-unionized private sector employees are shafted by their lack of political influence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/77 "2010-09-30T03:03:51Z")
“Austerity” is one of those things you say to Euro tighty righties to get them hot. Italy to England, Spain to Germany, instant boner. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/78 "2010-09-30T05:03:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=sleeping] > Capitalism will never die because socialism will always be there to save it. It’s funny that in general it’s worked out the other way, no? 😛 -XT [/QUOTE] History has shown that _excessive socialism_ has required capitalist-style reforms to bail them out. History has shown that _excessive capitalism_ has required socialist reforms to bail them out. Neither wet dreamers of the hard core socialist or laissez-faire types seem to understand that society cannot stand with pure socialism or pure capitalism. It can and has only survived with a mix of both. > [@xtisme](#): > > Well, I don’t know if they are eating our lunch or not, but certainly China has done better, economically speaking, under their current quasi-capitalist system, than they did under Maoist Communism. Personally, I think if they can ever make the additional steps to get rid of all of the Communist/Feudalistic remnants and move towards a more Democratic system they really might eat our collective lunch. Of course, doing that won’t exactly be easy, so… > > -XT China will devastate their economic advantage by allowing a (representative or otherwise) democratic system to flourish. Democracies mean human rights, pollution controls, workplace safety and pushes for higher wages\*. Corporations in China are growing up addicted to higher profit margins due to a lack of these perks that we in the West take for granted - if China becomes a democracy they will promptly move further south in Asia and then to Africa in search of easily exploitable natural resources and labor. But the odds of China, inherently a Confucian society (which strongly values the group over the individual), moving to a democratic system is pretty much a pipe dream. - edited to add: Well, of course there is India as the exception to that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/79 "2010-09-30T06:04:04Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > As to the OP, yes, Americans are much more timid about demanding fair compensation because they have been raised by corporate propaganda to believe that less government is always good, without mention of the caveat that corporations will fill in whatever vacuum the government leaves. Actually Americans have been raised on the idea that freedom means the rich can take their ball and move to another country. The poor get to stand at the dock and wave goodbye to the taxes and jobs the rich generated. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/80 "2010-09-30T06:08:34Z")
> [@](#): > > …But the odds of China, inherently a Confucian society (which strongly values the group over the individual), moving to a democratic system is pretty much a pipe dream There isn’t any inherent reason why democracy couldn’t flourish under such circumstances. One might expect the will of the people to take a somewhat different form from that of “western” societies. But I don’t see how it precludes. But can any society or government sustain itself in an utterly raped environment? It may well be that China’s citizens will be able to report by cell phone that they cannot breathe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=5)