# Man, this brings tears to muh eyes. Anti-Austerity protests raging in Europe. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471 "2010-09-29T14:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/161 "2010-10-04T04:30:16Z")
Did someone, somewhere make the concious decision that the US would do everything in it’s power to encourage China to become a participant in the world economy, and promote the most rapid possible development of China? Was this an actual policy decision? Now sure back in the Reagan era China was at a cusp in it’s history where friendly US trade policies made a crucial difference in encouraging the PRC to reform it’s policies and hopefully democracy would follow the free market. But It almost seems like the US is killing itself to make China richer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/162 "2010-10-04T04:45:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Which is why we should tax them while they are generating their wealth here, before they expatriate to the Caymans.. > > Chase them away until nothing is left? That’s like selling parts off a milk cow. First of all I was quipping. Second of all, I don’t believe for a second that some significant population of people are going to leave because we raise their marginal rate to 39.6 %or even 50%. We cannot engage in race to the bottom taxation and survive as a modern western nation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/163 "2010-10-04T04:48:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > His point, to the extent that he had one, was to chase “the rich” out of the US and then block them from selling to us. Essentially he wants to deal with a period of high unemployment by getting rid of those who create jobs. I don’t think we should chase anyone out. But I also don’t think we walk around on eggshells afraid of hurting their feeling either. Income tax rates are at their lowest since Herbert Hoover, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people who think they should be able to continue to enjoy those rates at the cost of our economy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/164 "2010-10-04T05:23:04Z")
> [@erez](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Which is why we should tax them while they are generating their wealth here, before they expatriate to the Caymans.. > > So killing the golden goose is the best long-term policy you can come up with? Just remember that the top 1% of income earners paid 40.4% percent of all federal individual income taxes ([http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html](http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)). I think its time we stopped deifying people who make a lot of money. They’re not going anywhere, they’re not unique special people with superpowers. For the most part, they are smart hardworking people but they wouldn’t have this sort of success anywhere else. Remember Fabrice Tourre? he made $2,000,000 when he was 28. With very few exception, for every job like Fabrice had, there are dozens of folks that can do the job. The Fabrice’s of the world are fungible and plentiful, we only need a few of them and they touch a lot of money so we pay them very very well but there is nothing Fabrice had that any one of dozens of others wouldn’t have had if they had gotten the job instead of him. We don’t need to screw ourselves in the ass to entice the Fabrice’s of the world to stay. Oh wait, but how about the small businessmen? What about them? People still come HERE to become small businessmen because the opportunity is here. My family is full of entrepreneurs and if the marginal rate jumped to 50%, they still wouldn’t abandon 100% of their income and leave the country in protest over the 50% income tax. Its not like they can easily recreate their success anywhere else. Now once they have already gotten wealthy and aren’t really in the active income generating mode anymore, then sure they can go anywhere they want and rich folks have been moving to places like Monaco since I can remember. That’s why you’ve got to tax them while they are earning the money because you may not get another chance at collecting their fair share of the tax revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/165 "2010-10-04T05:29:47Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > So as soon as someone founds a successful company, the government should take it away from him and distribute it to the public? > > You can’t be seriously telling me you interpreted my comments to such a straw man-level extreme… right? You must be new. Its pretty much how conservatives win arguments. The underlying assumption is that the market is equitable, it distributes income according to the value contributed. This has never been the case, less so today than ever before. We try to balance efficiency with equity, in the last 40 years we have basically thrown equity overboard and it hasn’t been a total disaster but when the people who earn most of the money cry about paying most of the taxes, it should fall on deaf ears. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/166 "2010-10-04T05:32:22Z")
> [@erez](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > What I am proposing is a ban on trade with cheap labor nations, nations that do not have a democracy, nations that ignore environmental protections and nations that are rife with unsafe workplaces. If you keep the work from going offshore to some cheap exploitationist economy, you go a VERY long way toward achieving a more even distribution of wealth. Combine this with a loophole-free progressive taxation system and you have pretty much won the game. > > There is a reason that economists agree that trade barriers reduce standards of living. This is not really controversial, so I won’t go into details, except to note that China is a huge holder of U.S. debt and that you can’t ignore the effects of stopping trade on the Chinese population either. You have no problem with making everybody poorer to achieve your goal of a flatter income distribution in the U.S.? Name ONE reputable economist who thinks that free trade with a country that manipulates its currency and does all the other stuff China does, is good over the long run. Even Milton Friedman would condemn free trade with China. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/167 "2010-10-04T05:36:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m not talking about the CEOs. I agree with you - CEOs make too much money. I don’t see how legislation will do much to change this though, as it’s more a matter of toxic corporate culture; still, here specifically you have a valid point. > > No, I’m talking about the entrepreneurs - the people who build companies out of scratch, and the people who risk their own money to invest in them. You’d drive these people away along with the fat-cat CEOs, and without them, you don’t have an economy. A country’s economic strength has a direct correlation to the number of patents it files; how many patents do you think will be filed in your version of America? > > Prosperity is fueled by dreams of wealth. You’re taking about shutting the valve. You know when America had a top marginal tax rate of 92%, we were still doing pretty well. Taxes don’t have the sort of effect on behaviour that everyone seems to think. I have a partner that loudly proclaimed that they would reduce how much they worked if his taxes were raised. Now that this is imminent, he doesn’t say this so loudly anymore. He merely gripes and complains about how we are stifling the small businessman (NONE of his clients (or acquaintances) could be mistaken for a small businessman and yet he seems to have his finger on the pulse of the small businessman population). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/168 "2010-10-04T05:38:05Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I was going to correct a couple posters’ misconceptions about Ireland but I see **carn** and **An Gadaí** got to them before me. So, I’ll just emphasise this point: Ireland is absolutely the _last_ country anyone would want to point to in support of austerity measures. The fact is this country is going deeper and deeper in the hole [(example)](http://www.progressive-economy.ie/2010/09/q2-gdp-irish-depression.html) and the only reason things aren’t even worse than they are is because of the reappearance of that great Irish tradition of emigration. We are like a freakin’ poster child for why austerity measures don’t work. You simply can’t keep taking money out of an economy and expect it to revive itself. BUT BUT BUT, you have really low tax rates for corporations and the rich, doesn’t that mean that London should be cleared out before Dublin loses a single dollar of productivity, after all, the people who create jobs are going to move to Dublin right? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/169 "2010-10-04T05:40:52Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > And do you expect Ireland world have been able to borrow the money to continue without “austerity” measures? Already the rates banks demand to insure against Irish default are above those of Greece when it went bottom’s up, and the rates keep climbing. And that is with all the cut backs in expenses. Ireland maxed out all its credit cards and there was not a single bank in the world that would have lent it any money if it hadn’t cut down on expenses. At least not without having to pay astronomical rates. It’s not a question of if to have austerity. Ireland has no choice in the matter. Unless they take for granted that the Germans will continue to underwrite cheques for them? The problem with conservatives is that they think the economy is too frikking simple. They latch onto a concept and run with it until they bury the needle. Low taxes spur economic activity? Well lets keep lowering them until we get rid of them altogether, heck maybe we can make an argument for negative taxes (well actually at the lower income levels we do have a negative income tax rate). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/170 "2010-10-04T05:50:41Z")
> [@erez](#): > > “A 1990 survey of economists employed in the United States found that more than 90 percent generally agreed with the proposition that the use of tariffs and import quotas reduced the average standard of living.” [http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/04/09/Poole.pdf](http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/04/09/Poole.pdf) I totally agree but free trade really has to go both ways for it to work. People used to think that the impact of trade imbalances would be eliminated by shifting currency values and all sorts of other stuff that is pretty theoretically sound, until someone stops playing by the rules. People didn’t think you could peg a currency the way that the Chinese have done it but little did they realize that Hong Kong had been doing it for fucking decades and had perfected how to use currency manipulation to their advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/171 "2010-10-04T07:49:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Rune](#): > > > > And do you expect Ireland world have been able to borrow the money to continue without “austerity” measures? Already the rates banks demand to insure against Irish default are above those of Greece when it went bottom’s up, and the rates keep climbing. And that is with all the cut backs in expenses. Ireland maxed out all its credit cards and there was not a single bank in the world that would have lent it any money if it hadn’t cut down on expenses. At least not without having to pay astronomical rates. It’s not a question of if to have austerity. Ireland has no choice in the matter. Unless they take for granted that the Germans will continue to underwrite cheques for them? > > The problem with conservatives is that they think the economy is too frikking simple. They latch onto a concept and run with it until they bury the needle. Low taxes spur economic activity? Well lets keep lowering them until we get rid of them altogether, heck maybe we can make an argument for negative taxes (well actually at the lower income levels we do have a negative income tax rate). Why do you reply to my post with something completely unrelated? If you reply to a post you should have some directly relevant to say to that not just some random rant. Perhaps you are of the opinion that Ireland would not have, like Greek did, experienced problems with borrowing money? Then say this. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/172 "2010-10-04T14:35:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > His point, to the extent that he had one, was to chase “the rich” out of the US and then block them from selling to us. Essentially he wants to deal with a period of high unemployment by getting rid of those who create jobs. > > I don’t think we should chase anyone out. But I also don’t think we walk around on eggshells afraid of hurting their feeling either. Income tax rates are at their lowest since Herbert Hoover, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people who think they should be able to continue to enjoy those rates at the cost of our economy. Hold up. Shodan is misinterpreting what I said. I said we need to kick the bad actors out and keep the good ones. I did not say all rich are bad actors. Let’s make sure that one is set straight. I can’t accuse anyone of lying on this forum but Shodan sure as hell has twisted what I said beyond what any rational person could interpret of it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/173 "2010-10-04T17:02:53Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Hold up. Shodan is misinterpreting what I said. > > I said we need to kick the bad actors out and keep the good ones. I did not say all rich are bad actors. > > Let’s make sure that one is set straight. I can’t accuse anyone of lying on this forum but Shodan sure as hell has twisted what I said beyond what any rational person could interpret of it. Well, you aren’t very good at stating or defending any point in particular, but here is what you said - > [@](#): > > We should have been raised on the idea of waving goodbye to these rich people and then blocking them from ever selling to the American market. > > It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen. > > Entrepreneurs who are made to understand that we won’t tolerate another generation of robber barons. > > But again, that would require Americans to have more of both foresight and courage. You then later agreed that Bill Gates was a good example of the kind of person you didn’t want in the US, “bad actors who are taking away American jobs and evading taxes through tax havens”. You aren’t very good at sticking to any one point in particular, but that commonly happens when the point you propose is stupid. I didn’t follow the drivel you posted about how we don’t need the jobs that Microsoft provides because Linux is better than any other OS, but I didn’t read it very closely. Then came the part where you rejected what 90%+ of economists agree on as opinion, and what one economist thinks is gospel, and it became clear that you are in over your head but don’t yet realize it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/174 "2010-10-04T17:45:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > Hold up. Shodan is misinterpreting what I said. > > > > I said we need to kick the bad actors out and keep the good ones. I did not say all rich are bad actors. > > > > Let’s make sure that one is set straight. I can’t accuse anyone of lying on this forum but Shodan sure as hell has twisted what I said beyond what any rational person could interpret of it. > > Well, you aren’t very good at stating or defending any point in particular, but here is what you said - > > > [@](#): > > > > We should have been raised on the idea of waving goodbye to these rich people and then blocking them from ever selling to the American market. That’s not saying all rich people. That’s talking about the ones who ship our jobs overseas and evade taxes. > [@](#): > > It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen. Yeah, and if you had any reasoning skills you’d realize that these new entrepreneurs would STILL GET RICH. But without making a mess of the country. > [@](#): > > You then later agreed that Bill Gates was a good example of the kind of person you didn’t want in the US, “bad actors who are taking away American jobs and evading taxes through tax havens”. And? Bill Gates is not God. He stole his intellectual property. And there’s always Steve Jobs. Or are you saying that’s untrue? > [@](#): > > You aren’t very good at sticking to any one point in particular, You’re very good at twisting words. Probably because you need a straw man to attack and can’t take on a real opponent. > [@](#): > > I didn’t follow the drivel you posted about how we don’t need the jobs that Microsoft provides because Linux is better than any other OS, but I didn’t read it very closely. Obviously your reading comprehension is lacking, too. I said that Microsoft, and indeed the entire software industry, is in danger of decimation due to the rise of Linux and Open Source. We may not HAVE to do anything about Microsoft, Gates or Ballmer; many of those jobs could be lost to free as in freedom and free as in beer Open Source software. Your definition of drivel must be something you can’t comprehend. > [@](#): > > Then came the part where you rejected what 90%+ of economists agree on as opinion, and what one economist thinks is gospel, and it became clear that you are in over your head but don’t yet realize it. Still [appealing to authority](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority), I see. “But they all said!” Wow, that sounds like a cowardly tantrum more than an argument to me. These same economists failed to predict the housing collapse and the financial panic that ensued. Consensus does not make truth. Apparently you’re in over your head when it comes to the task of critical thinking. If the crowd agrees, you just go with it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/175 "2010-10-04T17:58:04Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > The world has left America behind. Huh? We have the highest GDP per capita in the world except for a handful of countries with vast energy resources and small populations. We are winning. We have the best economy, the best military, and the loudest voice in international diplomacy. The United States is the only superpower in the world, and one recession isn’t going to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/176 "2010-10-04T18:15:55Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > That’s not saying all rich people. That’s talking about the ones who ship our jobs overseas and evade taxes. I notice you clipped off the part where you said what kind of rich people you wanted to drive out of the country - > [@](#): > > It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen. > > Entrepreneurs who are made to understand that we won’t tolerate another generation of robber barons. OK - describe how Bill Gates has exploited his workers, and damaged the country, but created 8% of the jobs in Washington state and generating $9 billion in direct and indirect revenue for that state alone. And none of your horseshit about Linux - back up what you said. You claim he has done all this damage, but you cannot come up with one fucking piece of evidence. So let’s see it. Show how Microsoft exploits its workers and creates low-paying jobs. Show all the times they have been convicted of violating the environmental laws. Cite the number of times Microsoft has been convicted of tax evasion. > [@](#): > > I said that Microsoft, and indeed the entire software industry, is in danger of decimation due to the rise of Linux and Open Source. We may not HAVE to do anything about Microsoft, Gates or Ballmer; many of those jobs could be lost to free as in freedom and free as in beer Open Source software. What does this have to do with trade tariffs and driving people out of the country for creating jobs? > [@](#): > > Still [appealing to authority](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority), I see. “But they all said!” Wow, that sounds like a cowardly tantrum more than an argument to me. Gosh - on the one hand, we have an overwhelming consensus of professonals who spend their lifetimes studying a subject, and on the other we got - well, you, who cannot make a coherent argument and contradicts himself with distressing regularity. Gee, tough call. > [@](#): > > These same economists failed to predict the housing collapse and the financial panic that ensued. Well, if that is your only test, then cite where the one economist you cited predicted the collapse of the housing bubble. Go ahead - I’ll wait. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/177 "2010-10-04T18:50:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > That’s not saying all rich people. That’s talking about the ones who ship our jobs overseas and evade taxes. > > I notice you clipped off the part where you said what kind of rich people you wanted to drive out of the country That’s because I expected you to read it and realize that I didn’t say kick them all out. > [@](#): > > - OK - describe how Bill Gates has exploited his workers, and damaged the country, but created 8% of the jobs in Washington state and generating $9 billion in direct and indirect revenue for that state alone. And none of your horseshit about Linux Temper, temper! Just because your arguments are exploding in your face doesn’t mean you have to resort to swearing. 😃 I’m going to continue to bring up Linux because it is a commercial threat to Microsoft that Microsoft has tried to use fraudulent means to stop. I already cited for you the fact that Microsoft falsely claimed Linux violates over 200 Microsoft patents and that none of this has gone to court. I cited that for you. > [@](#): > > - back up what you said. You claim he has done all this damage, but you cannot come up with one fucking piece of evidence. Oh, really? [Where shall I start](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_antitrust_case)? Microsoft is bringing jobs to Washington state and $9 billion in revenue to Washington state at the cost of other sectors of the industry and jobs in other places, not to mention innovation: which is a natural result of a monopoly _for which Microsoft was found guilty_. That should be a big enough cited fact for you. > [@](#): > > So let’s see it. Show how Microsoft exploits its workers and creates low-paying jobs. [That, too](http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2004/07/4052.ars). 2000 jobs lost to India as far back as 2004. It’s probably worse now. > [@](#): > > Gosh - on the one hand, we have an overwhelming consensus of professonals who spend their lifetimes studying a subject, and on the other we got - well, you, who cannot make a coherent argument and contradicts himself with distressing regularity. And on the other hand we have you, who makes up false accusations of “incoherence” and “contradictions” but who has failed to post even one cite in support of your point. The only thing you can do is let others do your thinking for you, twist people’s words and throw temper tantrums when your point blows up in your face. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > These same economists failed to predict the housing collapse and the financial panic that ensued. > > Well, if that is your only test, then cite where the one economist you cited predicted the collapse of the housing bubble. He probably didn’t… which is why I think for myself and look to history for lessons. So far history is not having your back in this argument. You’ve run out of arguments at this point. And with all your tantrum throwing, personal attacks and childish cursing, it’s time to put you on ignore. You will behave like an adult or I will not waste further time on you. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/178 "2010-10-04T20:06:32Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, if that is your only test, then cite where the one economist you cited predicted the collapse of the housing bubble. > > He probably didn’t. So why should I believe a word he says? If you complain about arguments from authority, don’t expect to be taken seriously when you do exactly the same thing. > [@](#): > > I’m going to continue to bring up Linux because it is a commercial threat to Microsoft that Microsoft has tried to use fraudulent means to stop. If you want to continue to drag up irrelevancies, I can’t stop you. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Show how Microsoft exploits its workers and creates low-paying jobs. > > That, too. 2000 jobs lost to India as far back as 2004. Low-paying? Did you even read your own cite? > [@](#): > > some specifics on Microsoft’s offshoring rates, including how much you can make as an offshore Project Manager (US$36/hour). > [@](#): > > which is a natural result of a monopoly for which Microsoft was found guilty. As **xtisme** points out, Netscape did exactly the same thing that Microsoft did. > [@](#): > > I expected you to read it and realize that I didn’t say kick them all out. > [@](#): > > That’s talking about the ones who ship our jobs overseas and evade taxes. Those are “the rich” that you claimed you wanted to kick out of the country. And you agreed that BIll Gates was an example. Do you stand by that statement? Even though you have failed to produce any evidence that he has evaded taxes, or do you want to get rid of him for the heinous sin of creating jobs in Washington state, across the US, as well as in the rest of the world? Look, I understand your difficulties - what you claim about punishing people for creating jobs is pretty self-evidently stupid, your ideas on protectionism are rejected by all serious thinkers, people aren’t falling for your attempts to change the subject and blow smoke up our collective asses. This isn’t one of those anti-globalist marches where college dropouts with hemp shirts and BO do original street theater about the plight of unemployed spotted owls or something. You actually have to makse sense here. You might want to try that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/179 "2010-10-05T00:15:15Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You will behave like an adult or I will not waste further time on you. The same goes to you, **Le Jacquelope** : you will not insult other posters in this forum, you will not tell people you are putting them on your ignore list, and you will not junior moderate - report a post if you think someone else is breaking the rules. These are punishable by warnings and I expect you won’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471/180 "2010-10-05T01:21:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > You will behave like an adult or I will not waste further time on you. > > The same goes to you, **Le Jacquelope** : you will not insult other posters in this forum, you will not tell people you are putting them on your ignore list, and you will not junior moderate - report a post if you think someone else is breaking the rules. These are punishable by warnings and I expect you won’t do this again. Acknowledged. You do realize I did not start the insults, right? Or are others allowed to insult me and I cannot return in kind? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-this-brings-tears-to-muh-eyes-anti-austerity-protests-raging-in-europe/555471.md?page=10)