Man, this brings tears to muh eyes. Anti-Austerity protests raging in Europe.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@elucidator

…But the odds of China, inherently a Confucian society (which strongly values the group over the individual), moving to a democratic system is pretty much a pipe dream

There isn’t any inherent reason why democracy couldn’t flourish under such circumstances. One might expect the will of the people to take a somewhat different form from that of “western” societies. But I don’t see how it precludes.

Time will tell regarding that. But I wouldn’t bet on democracy happening in a country that hasn’t had it for thousands of years and persists in not having it in this day and age. Even the USSR had to surrender to democracy. (If what you call what’s going on in Russia now a “democracy” *.)

But can any society or government sustain itself in an utterly raped environment? It may well be that China’s citizens will be able to report by cell phone that they cannot breathe.

If they’re calling over the cell about breathing problems it could either be the result of the pollution or because something’s crushing the wind out of them. :eek::eek::eek: You never know over there, because of all the censorship and all that. (I can understand of course if this joke doesn’t elicit any laughs…)

Besides, who knows? All that pollution could be a part of their population control program…

• It’s looking more and more like a network of plutocrats and oligarchs to me.

[RickJay]

@Le_Jacquelope

Time will tell regarding that. But I wouldn’t bet on democracy happening in a country that hasn’t had it for thousands of years and persists in not having it in this day and age.

That could have been said of all democracies.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Magiver

@sleeping

As to the OP, yes, Americans are much more timid about demanding fair compensation because they have been raised by corporate propaganda to believe that less government is always good, without mention of the caveat that corporations will fill in whatever vacuum the government leaves.

Actually Americans have been raised on the idea that freedom means the rich can take their ball and move to another country. The poor get to stand at the dock and wave goodbye to the taxes and jobs the rich generated.

We should have been raised on the idea of waving goodbye to these rich people and then blocking them from ever selling to the American market.

It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen.

Entrepreneurs who are made to understand that we won’t tolerate another generation of robber barons.

But again, that would require Americans to have more of both foresight and courage.

[Magiver]

@Le_Jacquelope

@Magiver

Actually Americans have been raised on the idea that freedom means the rich can take their ball and move to another country. The poor get to stand at the dock and wave goodbye to the taxes and jobs the rich generated.

We should have been raised on the idea of waving goodbye to these rich people and then blocking them from ever selling to the American market.

What fantasy world of trade sanctions are you living in?

@Le_Jacquelope

It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen.

I would love to be exploited like my forefathers were. We are the richest nation in the world because of the freedoms that allow a person to start up a company and benefit from it’s success.

@Le_Jacquelope

Entrepreneurs who are made to understand that we won’t tolerate another generation of robber barons.

But again, that would require Americans to have more of both foresight and courage.

Robber barons pay taxes and create jobs. Poor people create debt. There is a clear history of failure when money is not linked to risk, investment, and hard work.

[Nava]

@suranyi

In the U.S. strikes occur by employees against an employer for perceived grievances against the employees.

That’s 90+% of European strikes. But 99% of those don’t get reported in the news.
The Spanish general strike is not against the European measures, it’s against the Spanish government. It’s also nowhere near succesful compared with previous general strikes or with any normal strike you wish to pick. All the unions are saying is “not like this!”, but they don’t have any counter-proposals to bring to the table, they have allowed the concept of “acquired rights” (social precedent, if you wish), which is very important in Spanish law and the foundation of Foral law to be eroded, and they continue with the usual policy of ignoring the self-employed or considering us part of The Business-Owning Evil, which is not very intelligent in a country where self-employment keeps growing.

ZP can kiss my left buttcheek, UGT the right one and CCOO is welcome to take a lick on what’s in the middle.

[Baboonanza]

@Le_Jacquelope

Time will tell regarding that. But I wouldn’t bet on democracy happening in a country that hasn’t had it for thousands of years and persists in not having it in this day and age. Even the USSR had to surrender to democracy. (If what you call what’s going on in Russia now a “democracy” *.)

That’s kind of the point though isn’t it? Democracy in Russia wasn’t so much demanded by the people as pushed by the West. What the Russian people appear to want is a strong patriarchal government. It should look after it’s people, sure, but equally important is that it is a manifestation of the Russian Bear. That is why Putin has done so well, he is the strong man restoring Russia’s own image as a strong people after the humiliating failure of communism.

Likewise there is little evidence that the majority of China want a western-style democracy. They seem (to me anyway) to be be more interested in results and prosperity than the methods used to elect the leaders, and because of their different culture they have less concern for some people being stepped on to further wider interests than we do in the West.

Personally I don’t believe that Western-style democracy is the be-all and end-all of government systems. It has worked well for us because we have a history of strong individualism but it’s also rife with potential problems. You only have to look at the terrible state of American politics to see that.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Magiver

What fantasy world of trade sanctions are you living in?

Wait up. Are you telling me it’s not possible to ban someone from selling goods to the U.S.? Hello? Cuba, anyone? It’s been done before. What we lack here is courage.

I would love to be exploited like my forefathers were. We are the richest nation in the world because of the freedoms that allow a person to start up a company and benefit from it’s success.

And we are losing that richest country in the world status because the rich are taking our jobs overseas to nations where they can pollute the hell out of the environment and kill workers in collapsing factories and mines, while paying them wages you couldn’t afford a cup of coffee on here.

The rich are now strangling both workers and small businesses here in America. Just you try and start up your own cable TV company in any metro area and see if I’m wrong.

Oh and I am seriously not interested in being HAPPY with what scraps the rich drop on our plates. We as a country need to be moving forward, not being dragged backwards in this endless “free trade” race for the bottom. China has mag lev trains and is innovating in photovoltaic cells and we can’t even get Amtrak to work plus we have to rely on CHINA for solar panel production and installation. We’re falling BEHIND because of the corporate elite.

@Le_Jacquelope

Entrepreneurs who are made to understand that we won’t tolerate another generation of robber barons.

But again, that would require Americans to have more of both foresight and courage.

Robber barons pay taxes and create jobs. Poor people create debt.

Woah. You are seriously dead in the grave wrong. Robber barons create jobs in other countries. Poor people create jobs by buying stuff. Were you not here or something when the poor stopped buying stuff in 2008 and it drove countless companies out of business? Eliminate the poor and the working class and you will not have a nation left to talk about.

As for creating debt? How many poor people contributed to the debt that nearly sank Dubai and the Cayman Islands? The rich evade taxes using offshore tax havens - that’s a lot of debt. Tax breaks for the rich cost America TRILLIONS of dollars during the Bush years. Please, I dare you, tell me that is factually wrong. And while you’re trying, please also look up the word “plutocracy”.

There is a clear history of failure when money is not linked to risk, investment, and hard work.

Wow, you just described Wall Street and the big banks to a T.

[Robot_Arm]

@Magiver

Robber barons pay taxes and create jobs.

Those noble public servants; if only we could find some way to reward them for the sacrifices they’ve made for us.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Baboonanza

@Le_Jacquelope

Time will tell regarding that. But I wouldn’t bet on democracy happening in a country that hasn’t had it for thousands of years and persists in not having it in this day and age. Even the USSR had to surrender to democracy. (If what you call what’s going on in Russia now a “democracy” *.)

That’s kind of the point though isn’t it? Democracy in Russia wasn’t so much demanded by the people as pushed by the West. What the Russian people appear to want is a strong patriarchal government. It should look after it’s people, sure, but equally important is that it is a manifestation of the Russian Bear. That is why Putin has done so well, he is the strong man restoring Russia’s own image as a strong people after the humiliating failure of communism.

Thank you very much for that more in-depth insight about Russia. I hadn’t considered that angle before. It makes sense that we made a mistake pushing Western style democracy on a country that desires a more patriarchal government; it helps to explain Putin. I tend to see Putin as a madman and now it makes sense why Russia likes him so much. I have known for a fact (for many years) that it was a dismal failure and it was morally wrong (many times over, no less) to “democratize” Iraq. Come to think of it, I’ve heard news stories of Russia screaming about opposing the “American hegemony” for years now.

Likewise there is little evidence that the majority of China want a western-style democracy. They seem (to me anyway) to be be more interested in results and prosperity than the methods used to elect the leaders, and because of their different culture they have less concern for some people being stepped on to further wider interests than we do in the West.

The danger with China is that they are proving that stepping on some people to further wider interests is the way to maximize prosperity as it is defined now. The world is watching; we here in the West would be wise to fear the possibility of China setting the political trends for the rest of the world: and if not the world, at least all of Asia and Africa.

Personally I don’t believe that Western-style democracy is the be-all and end-all of government systems. It has worked well for us because we have a history of strong individualism but it’s also rife with potential problems. You only have to look at the terrible state of American politics to see that.

And I thank God that America is not the be all and end all of Western-style democratic systems.

However I do admit to being a big fan of what I consider to be Western culture. I shudder to imagine if the world were to be like China or Russia. They’ve got problems that, from what I’ve seen in the news*, would make me run out and hug a Tea Partier (puke) and kiss the ground his truck just drove over. Of course, I also appreciate the virtue of not forcing other nations to adhere to our culture.

• Of course all those stories about the Russian Oligarchs and the Chinese One Child Policy, the citizens’ gender-cide of baby girls, the Chinese Government’s imprisoning of pro-Democracy demonstrators and the harvesting of political prisoners to provide transplants for organ transplant tourists could all be wrong. I doubt that though.

[Shodan]

@Le_Jacquelope

We should have been raised on the idea of waving goodbye to these rich people and then blocking them from ever selling to the American market.

So you’ve never actually heard of Smoot-Hawley and its effect on the economy during the Depression?

You might want to read up a bit before recommending something like that, given how it worked out in the past.

It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen.

Oh, absolutely. Get that son-of-a bitch Bill Gates out of the country - who needs him?

Regards,
Shodan

[Walker_in_Eternity]

@carm

This link (pdf) is a study of public versus private wages in France, England and Italy.

In all countries the public sector is found to pay more to low-skilled workers with respect to the private sector, while the reverse is true for highly skilled workers. The effects are more pronounced for females.

So no one is vastly underpaid, or overpaid. Sounds like a good system to me.

True, and in general public sector workers still get final salary pensions which not many in the private sector do these days (in the UK anyway and in my experience).

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Shodan

@Le_Jacquelope

We should have been raised on the idea of waving goodbye to these rich people and then blocking them from ever selling to the American market.

So you’ve never actually heard of Smoot-Hawley and its effect on the economy during the Depression?

You might want to read up a bit before recommending something like that, given how it worked out in the past.

Ah yes, the Smoot-Hawley boogeyman. Heard this one a thousand times. Well, you know what? China has a large number of import tariffs and trade barriers. I wonder why they’re not being damaged by the Smoot-Hawley effect? Or why the Smoot-Hawley effect didn’t hit us for banning trade with Cuba.

Oh, I remember now! Smoot-Hawley was a blanket tariff on everyone. Which is not the same as forbidding one or two bad players from playing the trade game.

@Shodan

@Le_Jacquelope

It might be a good thing to encourage the rich to leave. It would make it easier to replace them with more community/country-conscious entrepreneurs who understand the damage done by their predecessors’ exploitation and disregard for their countrymen.

Oh, absolutely. Get that son-of-a bitch Bill Gates out of the country - who needs him?

I’m not sure who really and truly needs him. If Bill Gates wants to take his money to offshore tax havens and send our jobs overseas, then he deserves to get out and take his ultra insecure overpriced bloated operating system with him. Linux is sitting right there in the peanut gallery just waiting to take Microsoft’s place; and it is far more capable of doing so to the great satisfaction of most Windows users at this very instant than you realize. (I’m talking CentOS/Fedora, not just Ubuntu.)

I think that you could have used a stronger example than a company that has open source barbarians swelling at their gates like Visigoths camped outside of Rome.

Even John Galt himself is not indespensible. There’s no reason why America can’t produce great innovations while enforcing a trickle-up system of economics.

If Government intervention was soooooo bad for innovation we wouldn’t have been up to our necks with the USSR for so many decades with the space race and the thrust vectoring race.

[Shodan]

@Le_Jacquelope

@Shodan

So you’ve never actually heard of Smoot-Hawley and its effect on the economy during the Depression?

You might want to read up a bit before recommending something like that, given how it worked out in the past.

Ah yes, the Smoot-Hawley boogeyman. Heard this one a thousand times. Well, you know what? China has a large number of import tariffs and trade barriers. I wonder why they’re not being damaged by the Smoot-Hawley effect? Or why the Smoot-Hawley effect didn’t hit us for banning trade with Cuba.

It hit us rather hard during the Great Depression, which is kind of the point.

Oh, I remember now! Smoot-Hawley was a blanket tariff on everyone. Which is not the same as forbidding one or two bad players from playing the trade game.

No, it isn’t, but you seemed to be hoping to kick more than one or two people out of the country.

@Shodan

Oh, absolutely. Get that son-of-a bitch Bill Gates out of the country - who needs him?

I’m not sure who really and truly needs him.

A good many people who work in Washington state would probably disagree with you.

Microsoft contributed $9.16 billion to the Washington state economy in 2008 through employee compensation and the company’s direct purchases of products and services, according to a Microsoft Economic Impact Study released today. In addition, the company’s total direct and indirect job impact amounted to 267,611 jobs, or 8.4 percent of the total employment in the state.

Cite.

If Government intervention was soooooo bad for innovation we wouldn’t have been up to our necks with the USSR for so many decades with the space race and the thrust vectoring race.

You think we went to the moon with trade tariffs?

Regards,
Shodan

[Evil_Captor]

@athelas

@Evil Captor

It just KILLS American conservatives’ arguments that we cannot afford this and that when progressives can point to Europe and say, “THEY can afford it and are doing all right!”

Not really, but nice try at projection there.

Western European per capita income is now about 30 percent below that of the United States and I see the gap widening rather than closing. It is common for the United States rate of productivity growth to be twice as high as that of the core European nations (NB: don’t be fooled by statistics of high average labor productivity levels in some countries, such as France. In part they result from limits on the creation of low-wage jobs and they do not predict good future performance.) The relatively free Ireland continues to boom, but France, Germany, Italy and others have performed poorly. Even the Dutch economic miracle appears to have ended.

Germany may experience a current blip in growth rates, coming close to three percent over the next year. But this will not sidestep the broader and persistent problem of shrinking populations. Most European birthrates are under the 1.5 mark and it is quite possible that many national populations will be cut in half by 2050. Along the way there will be too many retirees per worker and current European tax rates – already among the highest in the world – will have to rise. Since older populations also tend to be less productive, it is hard to see how Western Europe might reassume world economic leadership or even hold its current relative ground. Nor has the EU, for all its benefits, proven itself a good mechanism for making economic policy; farm subsidies are over 45 percent of the EU budget.

You know I’ve been hearing this kind of stuff from conservatives for over a decade, and I’m sorry, you have absolutely no cred with me on the issue. You’ve been wrong so often that the occasional accurate prognostication has no effect.

[Shodan]

@Evil_Captor

You know I’ve been hearing this kind of stuff from conservatives for over a decade, and I’m sorry, you have absolutely no cred with me on the issue. You’ve been wrong so often that the occasional accurate prognostication has no effect.

I think you grossly over-estimate the importance of your opinions.

Regards,
Shodan

[Le_Jacquelope]

@Shodan

@Le_Jacquelope

Ah yes, the Smoot-Hawley boogeyman. Heard this one a thousand times. Well, you know what? China has a large number of import tariffs and trade barriers. I wonder why they’re not being damaged by the Smoot-Hawley effect? Or why the Smoot-Hawley effect didn’t hit us for banning trade with Cuba.

It hit us rather hard during the Great Depression, which is kind of the point.

I’m still not seeing the connection between kicking out bad actors who are taking away American jobs and evading taxes through tax havens, and Smoot-Hawley. Call me a country bumpkin and all but there’s like zero parallels that I can see. Help a dumb hick out here will ya?

No, it isn’t, but you seemed to be hoping to kick more than one or two people out of the country.

Well, yeah. They want to sell to the American market while pissing on American workers and the protections and rights that make this market so big and powerful. They want to innovate in a nation with low wages, no pollution controls and collapsing factories? They should sell there, too. And live there. Sadly, though, the Constitution prevents stripping them of citizenship unless one can define their activities as treason… a move I’m not ready to endorse for obvious reasons. But we can ban them from selling here.

In fact, we can create an international Western trading block that only allows trade with nations that meet a standard of democratic freedoms, livable wages, environmental protections and workplace safety. If I were President I would push the Western nations to drop trade barriers with each other and totally block all trade with China, India, and all those sweatshop rabble. Then we can really see whose way works best.

A good many people who work in Washington state would probably disagree with you.
Cite.

Ah, yes, they do need him.

Then they’re really, really going to hate it if one of the advanced distributions of Linux acquires a kick-butt marketing genius that gets a significantly larger portion of Americans interested in Linux, which is already beyond hobbyist grade and well into consumer-grade quality.

Government intervention is not what’s going to kill Microsoft. What’s going to kill Microsoft is …

wait for it…

open source innovation.

The problem with open source is that it stands to replace a $9.1 billion (by the above figures) company with a company that makes practically $0. But that is where the winds of innovation are blowing. The Microsoft model is so 1990s… it’s outdated. It is becoming the proverbial horse and cart. Ironically, Microsoft will need (and has been trying to recruit) the Government to save it from innovation. They believe they have a God given right to profits and this will come out as times get harder for Microsoft.

You think we went to the moon with trade tariffs?

No, we went to the moon with mostly (if not entirely) American parts and labor.

If the industrialists had their way now, we’d outsource the work and parts to China.

[BrainGlutton]

@Bryan_Ekers

Americans should be angling to be more like Canadians, frankly.

:mad: I am not eating baked beans with maple syrup.

And what sick fuck thought up poutine?!

[Evil_Captor]

@Shodan

@Evil_Captor

You know I’ve been hearing this kind of stuff from conservatives for over a decade, and I’m sorry, you have absolutely no cred with me on the issue. You’ve been wrong so often that the occasional accurate prognostication has no effect.

I think you grossly over-estimate the importance of your opinions.

Regards,
Shodan

Well they are important to me. And at least they are rooted somewhere in reality, which is more than you can say for almost all conservative’s opinions.

[Kobal2]

@Whack-a-Mole

I’ll have to look it up but my sense is the French strike practically as a national pasttime. Seems some group or other is striking constantly in France.

French here, and concurred. We have strikes on more or less general principle all the time. Postal workers, subway drivers, taxi drivers and teacher strikes are the most common, but every branch of society has a go at one time or another. Back when I was in university there was even a major high-school strike. Not by the teachers, you understand, but by the students (as I recall, they demanded less crowding of classrooms, more teachers and an upgrade of computers, since basic comp.sci. classes are still taught with MO-5s in many schools).
I don’t claim to know how it goes in the whole of France, but we Parisians sure love taking to the streets. It never achieves much of anything mind you, but hey, it’s nice outside.

[XT]

Worked against the Bastille, so it’s not a complete wash.

-XT