# Man Thows Shoes at W: Can He Sink Lower? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 14, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137 "2008-12-14T18:21:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/61 "2008-12-14T23:20:22Z")
Those were some wicked fast reflexes! He just casually dodged both shoes, no big deal. Now, if it had been some lib’ral mamby pamby Democratic up there, he’d have been eating leather, screeching like a girl, and nursing a bloody nose. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/62 "2008-12-14T23:21:17Z")
I’m not sure how about the timing involved, but [here is](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16566.html) some explanation as to why the guy wasn’t immediately tackled: > [@](#): > > Bush was cool under fire and prevented an even bigger incident by waving off his lead Secret Service agent, who was prepared to extract him from the room. > > Video shows the president’s lead agent rushing to the podium, but the president immediately and subtly motions to him that it’s OK. The agent backs off. On preview, **VarlosZ** is right, good throw. In fact, two of them. I wonder what the Iraqis will do with him. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/63 "2008-12-14T23:26:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Now, if it had been some lib’ral mamby pamby Democratic up there, he’d have been eating leather, screeching like a girl, and nursing a bloody nose. Yeah, those Republicans sure are [graceful and coordinated](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlz0he9rtKw). ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/64 "2008-12-14T23:27:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not sure how about the timing involved, but [here is](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1208/16566.html) some explanation as to why the guy wasn’t immediately tackled: > > On preview, **VarlosZ** is right, good throw. In fact, two of them. > > I wonder what the Iraqis will do with him. If they don’t want him, “I’m A Celebrity…Get Me Out Of Here!” will. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/65 "2008-12-14T23:32:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “Staged” it? Really? :rolleyes:You might want to read your own cite and/or look up the meaning of “staged”. > > But thanks for reminding everyone of what they already knew, even though it’s not what you claim. What?? Here’s the #2 definition of “staged” from the on-line One-Look Dictionary: ▸ adjective: deliberately arranged for effect Here’s a quote from **Lobahan** ’s cite: > [@](#): > > The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down." The pyschological team used loudspeakers to encourage Iraqi civilians to assist, packed the scene with Iraqi children, and stepped in to readjust the props when one of the soldiers draped an American flag over the statue. “God bless them, but we were thinking from PSYOP school that this was just bad news,” the officer reported. "We didn’t want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, ‘No, we want an Iraqi flag!’ So I said ‘No problem, somebody get me an Iraqi flag.’ That’s deliberately arranged for effect. That’s staged. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/66 "2008-12-14T23:33:15Z")
Wow. That was kinda funny. But only because it was a pair of shoes. I would have a totally different reaction if he had had a gun or such. I may not be a fan of the President, but that doesn’t mean I wish to see any harm befall him. Kinda scary- that guy REALLY was flinging the shoes hard. So good on Mr. Bush for dodging them- much better job than I expected for that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/67 "2008-12-14T23:35:33Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > Yeah, those Republicans sure are [graceful and coordinated](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlz0he9rtKw). No kidding! [What a klutz!!!](http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/16367165/) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/68 "2008-12-14T23:37:35Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > When Saddam’s statue was taken down and dragged through the streets, people ran alongside and beat it with their shoes. It was a very striking demonstration of contempt. Yeah, I kinda knew that–hence the linked story in my post! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/69 "2008-12-14T23:45:59Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > From the side angle you could see how fast the shoe traveled. It was a nice dodge. Really? I thought it was kind of a lame duck. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/70 "2008-12-14T23:50:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Those were some wicked fast reflexes! He just casually dodged both shoes, no big deal. > > Now, if it had been some lib’ral mamby pamby Democratic up there, he’d have been eating leather, screeching like a girl, and nursing a bloody nose. Like [Al Franken](http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/01/279515.shtml)? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/71 "2008-12-14T23:56:17Z")
Edit: NM, didn’t check the link closely enough. There’s a video after all. Nice duck. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/72 "2008-12-14T23:56:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No kidding! [What a klutz!!!](http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/16367165/) From that link: > [@](#): > > But on a number of occasions, Ford, while golfing, hit into the galleries that lined the fairways to watch him. News cameras captured at least one spectator being hit in the head by an errant Ford shot. > > Bob Hope, a golfing friend of Ford, once quipped: "It’s not hard to find Jerry Ford on a golf course - you just follow the wounded.‘’ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/73 "2008-12-15T00:08:21Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > How extraordinary. Throwing two shoes at someone is considered an insult in the Middle East, you say? What a strange culture. I like the implication that throwing only one shoe at someone can be interpreted in other ways. I dunno, is it any stranger than a culture where raising a particular single finger is a big insult? > [@](#): > > Bush’s life and legacy does not sink any lower merely because some guy in Iraq threw shoes at him. Anybody can have shoes thrown at them. Totally agree. This incident means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/74 "2008-12-15T00:16:07Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > From that link: > > 😃 Well, It’s not like he was a QB, or even a running back or a wide receiver. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/75 "2008-12-15T00:17:56Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I dunno, is it any stranger than a culture where raising a particular single finger is a big insult? I was actually being sarcastic there. Is there a culture on Earth where having a shoe hurled at you isn’t considered an insult? “Say, that fellow just took off his shoe and threw it at my head! I wonder what he meant by that?” > [@](#): > > Totally agree. This incident means nothing. Well, it means that W’s reflexive instinct to cower in fear is still razor-sharp. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/76 "2008-12-15T00:20:30Z")
> [@Ro0sh](#): > > Honestly, Who throws a shoe? My mom threw so many shoes at us when we were growing up we called her American Maid. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/77 "2008-12-15T00:26:11Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > What?? Here’s the #2 definition of “staged” from the on-line One-Look Dictionary: > ▸ adjective: deliberately arranged for effect > > Here’s a quote from **Lobahan** ’s cite: > > That’s deliberately arranged for effect. That’s staged. Not quite. From the [_On Point_ report](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2004/onpoint/ch-6.htm) his cite cites: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Toppling the Statue–Army PSYOP Supports I MEF > > We woke up that morning [of 9 April] in the Iraqi Special Forces training compound on the outskirts of southern Baghdad. Attached to 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment (of I MEF), who were conducting a clearing operation on the southern approach to Baghdad, [we were] moving with their TAC at the time. We were kept in a centralized location while moving so that we could be flexed to where we might be needed. We were not sure what we were going to hit, but we were expecting a lot of resistance. The infantry unit was to be clearing door to door, while we would be broadcasting civilian noninterference messages and occasional surrender appeals when pockets of enemy forces were located. The infantry unit started its operation but was encountering no resistance at all. After a few hours of going door to door, kicking doors and entering, looking for enemy concentrations and weapons caches but finding none, they modified their plan and formed up into a column and started a general movement toward Al-Firdos (paradise) Square in [eastern] Baghdad, where the Palestine Hotel and statue [of Saddam Hussein] were located. **The entire movement went a lot faster than anyone had anticipated…** > > **Crowds of Iraqi citizens started coming out and cheering the American convoy.** We started to do some PSYOP broadcasts about bringing about a free Iraq, but knowing that we were to continue some clearing operations; we were telling them to stay away from our military vehicles for their own safety. We eventually dismounted from our vehicle and continued to inform the civilians to stay back from the military vehicles. **The Iraqi civilians were very receptive to us, and [we] continued to engage them with our interpreter.** > > **As we approached the street leading into the Al-Firdos Square, we could tell that there was a very large crowd of civilians starting to form up.** It looked like the infantry unit up there could use some support, so we moved our [tactical PSYOP team] TPT vehicle forward and started to run around seeing what they needed us to do to facilitate their mission… There was a large media circus at this location (I guess the Palestine Hotel was a media center at the time), almost as many reporters as there were Iraqis, as the hotel was right adjacent to the Al-Firdos Square. > > **The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down. Since we were right there, we chimed in with some loudspeaker support to let the Iraqis know what it was we were attempting to do.** The reporters were completely surrounding the vehicle, and we started having to ask the reporters to move out of the way, but they would not move. We were getting frustrated, but we were also laughing about it. We dismounted the vehicle again and just started pushing the people out of the way. They were starting to really inhibit our ability to conduct our mission. The tanks . . . formed up into a perimeter around the square, with the statue in the middle. > > An M88 recovery vehicle approached the statue and continued to drive up the steps right next to the statue in an attempt to bring it down. **The people had already tied a noose around the neck of the statue with some rope. They were trying to just tug on it and bring it down and were hitting it with sledgehammers; it was clearly getting crazy in the square. We were no longer in crowd control, as there was just no controlling this crowd at this time. We decided to just ride along with the crowd, and we started just kind of celebrating with the Iraqi people. We actually had to have our interpreter record an ad-hoc broadcast message, informing the Iraqi people that if they did not stand back from the statue, American forces would not bring the statue down.** We were afraid that some civilians would get hurt if they were too close or in the wrong spot. > > All of this activity was going on within just a few blocks of where other marines were battling with snipers in a building across from the Palestine Hotel. **The local Iraqi people just did not care for their well being at this point; they just wanted to see the statue come down..**.We looked over and now there was an American flag draped over the face of the statue. God bless them, but we were thinking from PSYOP school that this was just bad news. We didn’t want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, `No, we want an Iraqi flag!' So I said `No problem, somebody get me an Iraqi flag.’ I am not sure where it came from, but one of the Iraqis brought us the old Iraqi flag without the writing on it (added by Saddam). We got that as fast as we could and started running that up to the statue. At this time, the marines had put a chain from the boom of the recovery vehicle around the neck of the statue, and they just ran the [Iraqi] flag up the statue. It was real quick thinking on Staff Sergeant Plesich’s part to get that Iraqi flag up there quick. But by the time the Iraqi flag got put on the statue, there had already been a lot of photos taken with the marine covering the statue with the American flag. > > Somehow along the way, somebody had gotten the idea to put a bunch of Iraqi kids onto the wrecker that was to pull the statue down. While the wrecker was pulling the statue down, there were Iraqi children crawling all over it. Finally they brought the statue down, but we expected this big statue to come crashing down, to shatter or whatever, but it just slowly bent over and slid off the mounting pipes. **Once the statue was on the ground, it was attacked by Iraqis with the sledgehammers and broken apart. The head of the statue was dragged through the streets, with people hitting the face with their shoes and spitting on it.** After the statue was down, we started to receive a lot of intelligence on where Ba’ath Party personnel were staying and just generally got a lot of real good intelligence for use in later direct-action missions. All this information was developed with and through the human exploitation teams, which had assigned interpreters. I think it is fair to say that the U.S. Military _instigated_ the toppling of the statue. And it could very well be that the media chose to spin it as they did. And the PSYOPS people sought to get as much out of it as they could (having the kids climb on the vehicle). But to say that this spontaneous event was “staged” is spin pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/78 "2008-12-15T00:39:45Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > This incident means nothing. Seems like a pretty good summary of Bush’s presidency to me. This’ll be included in his legacy forever. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/79 "2008-12-15T00:51:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think it is fair to say that the U.S. Military _instigated_ the toppling of the statue. And it could very well be that the media chose to spin it as they did. And the PSYOPS people sought to get as much out of it as they could (having the kids climb on the vehicle). But to say that this spontaneous event was “staged” is spin pure and simple. If you choose to not have a sense of proportion that is. I also investigated the staged toppling of the statue, once you see the full images of the plaza one can not avoid the fact that those “local Iraqi people” were only a few , and to this day it is clear that the camera angles that the mainstream media showed us were misleading in the extreme. Only the BBC later did point later at the fact the big statue toppling was not at all an spontaneous event. It is important to notice here that the PSYOPS part was not only for the Iraqis, but for the USA viewers. (“This footage is gold for the administration” as one reported said on the air in the USA) ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137/80 "2008-12-15T00:53:13Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Really? I thought it was kind of a lame duck. Just brilliant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-thows-shoes-at-w-can-he-sink-lower/477137.md?page=5)