# Man tricks woman into taking pills to abort fetus. What should he be charged with? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074 "2014-01-29T22:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/21 "2014-01-30T18:34:25Z")
If Welden got the drug from his father’s office (his father’s a doctor) or from a pharmacy by using his father’s prescription pad, doesn’t that count as theft, as well? (Although Welden’s father doesn’t sound as if he’d press charges, if the drug came from a pharmacy, the company might feel differently.) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/22 "2014-01-30T18:35:15Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Oh, you’re one of those who thinks a man should be able to refuse his responsibility for a pregnancy–since a woman can (usually) choose to abort. Please don’t make such a assumption, I was commenting on a above post, I was not stating my personal viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/23 "2014-01-30T18:45:35Z")
Seems to me that assault, with aggravating factors (namely, the fraudulent administration of a drug to cause harm), would be appropriate. In my opinion, the impact of the assault on the victim should be a significant factor in the sentencing - that is, where the woman wanted to have the kid, the judge should take that into account, and judge the severity of the crime accordingly. It is not “murder” - the victim here is the woman, not the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/24 "2014-01-30T18:52:22Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Are you under the impression that a woman who tricks another woman into taking a drug that causes miscarriage would not be charged with anything? Are you under the impression that men never work as abortion providers? > > He’s not in jail because of his gender. Sorry, I should have been more specific - substitute “father” and “mother” for “man” and “woman” in my post. > [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me that assault, with aggravating factors (namely, the fraudulent administration of a drug to cause harm), would be appropriate. > > In my opinion, the impact of the assault on the victim should be a significant factor in the sentencing - that is, where the woman wanted to have the kid, the judge should take that into account, and judge the severity of the crime accordingly. It is not “murder” - the victim here is the woman, not the fetus. Exactly. If the mother can decide to end a fetus’ life without legal consequences, I don’t see how it can be murder when the father does the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/25 "2014-01-30T18:57:24Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > No - the point is that it’s a crime to secretly give a person a drug that causes uterine bleeding and miscarriages. See post 24, you are the one mistaken, the intent of the post was mother and father, not man and woman and it was clarified there. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/26 "2014-01-30T18:59:35Z")
As a huge abortion proponent, I think the guy should be charged with assault on her body at the very least. I don’t agree with murder, I don’t consider anything growing in a person prior to birth to be human enough to deserve any human rights at all whatsoever. But I do believe in personal body autonomy and this guy violated the woman’s. ---
**Author:** ![CatherineZeta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@CatherineZeta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatherineZeta)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/27 "2014-01-30T20:16:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Sorry, I should have been more specific - substitute “father” and “mother” for “man” and “woman” in my post. > > Exactly. If the mother can decide to end a fetus’ life without legal consequences, I don’t see how it can be murder when the father does the same thing. I agree with this completely. I tried explaining this to my teacher in my high school political science class when we were discussing hypothetical murder charges against a random person who attacked a pregnant woman and my teacher called me “anti woman.” I think that jail time and an assault charge makes sense, but not a murder charge. How can a fetus be a person in one instance but not in another? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/28 "2014-01-30T21:01:50Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > How can a fetus be a person in one instance but not in another? How can light be a particle in one instance and a wave in another, and that depends on what you are testing for? No seriously - why not? So as long as it is defined when what applies. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/29 "2014-01-30T21:13:40Z")
I’m glad they dropped the murder charge (y’all did notice that they dropped that, yes?) for the reasons already articulated. I don’t support ANY legislation or verdicts which make believe that a fetus is a person with the rights of a person, simply because it’s an admitted wedge used by anti-abortion legislators that I want no part of. But assault/aggravated assault/poisoning, something in that nature? Sure. And it also looks like we’d have some practicing medicine without a license, forgery (if he signed his father’s name to the prescription) and…hell, let’s add insurance fraud to the pile as well, if her insurance paid for medication for a medical condition she didn’t have (Cytotec is not FDA approved as an abortion pill; it’s approved for preventing stomach ulcers in those taking lots NSAIDS). I’m all for heaping as much unpleasantness, fines and jail time as possible on this asshole; I just don’t think he murdered a person. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/30 "2014-01-30T21:29:05Z")
As a 100% pro-choice proponent, I’m not sure I have a problem calling the intentional killing of a wanted fetus “murder”. It’s the woman’s choice whether or not to have the child. But once she’s decided to have it, it seems like it’s deserving of legal protection. Maybe call it something else (aggravated manslaughter or something), so that it doesn’t warrant the same punishment as murdering a non-fetal human, but it’s definitely a serious criminal offense. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/31 "2014-01-30T21:37:14Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > As a 100% pro-choice proponent, I’m not sure I have a problem calling the intentional killing of a wanted fetus “murder”. It’s the woman’s choice whether or not to have the child. But once she’s decided to have it, it seems like it’s deserving of legal protection. Maybe call it something else (aggravated manslaughter or something), so that it doesn’t warrant the same punishment as murdering a non-fetal human, but it’s definitely a serious criminal offense. Everyone I think agrees that it’s rightfully a serious crime. The nature of the crime, however, is up for debate. Specifically, who is the victim? In my opinion, the victim in this circumstance is the woman. Aside from the inherent criminality of administering any drug to someone without their consent (and the damage done to her by way of suffering from the miscarriage), what she has suffered is the deprivation of her choice, and it is that right - her right, to choice and bodily integrity - that ought to be subject to legal protection. Making the fetus subject to protection seems to me to be incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/32 "2014-01-30T21:51:09Z")
Attempted murder of the pregnant woman. How did he know the drug wouldn’t kill her? Since he is not a doctor, impersonating a physician. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/33 "2014-01-30T23:14:58Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Attempted murder of the pregnant woman. How did he know the drug wouldn’t kill her? > > Since he is not a doctor, impersonating a physician. Doesn’t attempted murder require an intent to _murder_, though? Mens rea, or something? He didn’t intend to kill her. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/34 "2014-01-30T23:47:34Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > As a 100% pro-choice proponent, I’m not sure I have a problem calling the intentional killing of a wanted fetus “murder”. It’s the woman’s choice whether or not to have the child. But once she’s decided to have it, it seems like it’s deserving of legal protection. Maybe call it something else (aggravated manslaughter or something), so that it doesn’t warrant the same punishment as murdering a non-fetal human, but it’s definitely a serious criminal offense. This seems like a malleable standard. What if there is a particularly fickle pregnant woman who changes her mind between birth and abortion several times per day. Does the fetus/unborn child gain and lose rights with each conflicting thought the woman has? What if this woman had decided 10 minutes prior to the man giving her the pill that she actually wanted an abortion (the legal kind in a clinic)? Should the charges he faces be different? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/35 "2014-01-31T00:19:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Everyone I think agrees that it’s rightfully a serious crime. > > The nature of the crime, however, is up for debate. Specifically, who is the victim? > > In my opinion, the victim in this circumstance is the woman. Aside from the inherent criminality of administering any drug to someone without their consent (and the damage done to her by way of suffering from the miscarriage), what she has suffered is the deprivation of her choice, and it is that right - her right, to choice and bodily integrity - that ought to be subject to legal protection. > > Making the fetus subject to protection seems to me to be incoherent. Many people would consider her deprivation of choice nulified by the deprivation of choice available to the man in the case. Her right to bodily integrity ends where someone else’s bank account begins. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/36 "2014-01-31T00:56:51Z")
Personhood is granted by the reality of biology, not the whims of another person. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/37 "2014-01-31T02:43:05Z")
**adaher** I believe that and you believe that, but legal consistency is less important to me than punishing a serious crime. I’d prefer that both elective abortion and what we can call ‘feticide’ (I.e. Killing someone’s fetus / embryo without their consent) be treated as homicide, but I’d prefer adequately punishing one of those two actions rather than neither. For the same reason, I’m not in favour of allowing men to dodge child support by saying they deserve a choice too. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/38 "2014-01-31T02:58:24Z")
There was a Forensic Files case maybe ten years ago (?Florida) where a physician tried to induce a miscarriage by secretly adding a medication to his girlfriend’s food/drink (she got suspicious, set up a videocamera in the kitchen and got him on tape doing the tampering). He was sentenced to some jail time and lost his medical license. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/39 "2014-01-31T05:20:29Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Yes, but the end result of the poisoning is usually what you’re charged with. Did you drug that person to sexually assault them? Well, that’s a rape charge. Try to kill them with poison? That’s attempted murder. > > “Poisoning” isn’t something that is on the law books in most places because the intent is generally where you find the statute. > > In this case, though, I’d probably go with the aggravated assault charge. Was the pill was a deadly weapon, or did serious bodily injury? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074/40 "2014-01-31T05:24:29Z")
A fetus isn’t a person so it can’t be murder. Aggrivated assault sounds good, on top of/in addition to any laws he broke with regards to performing an illegal abortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-tricks-woman-into-taking-pills-to-abort-fetus-what-should-he-be-charged-with/680074.md?page=3)