# Man vs Chimp - fight to the death (a different perspective) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 24, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663 "2015-10-24T22:23:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![guitario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@guitario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guitario)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/1 "2015-10-24T22:23:57Z")
My apologies in advance - this is quite a long post. I know these threads have been around in the past, and I know the internet in general is awash with similar debates, but they all flawed. Here’s why… It’s always the crazed, super strength chimp, hell bent on eating your face off vs the average man/martial artist/generic big famous dude. Why? Would there be much of a debate in matching up a professional UFC fighter against a 12 year old budding karate enthusiast? No, because it’s pointless. We know the outcome. So lets change the hypothetical scenario in order to even things up a little. Lets assume the chimp is average in every way possible. Normal weight, fully mature (physically and mentally), balanced personality etc etc. Your average chimp on the street, if you will. Well, up until the point where he’s placed in a fight to the death… but you get the idea. Now lets assume our hypothetical human being is thus… Let’s assume he is a physical clone of Mariusz Pudzianowski (one of the strongest men on the planet). 1.85m tall and 119kg. That gives us a base to work from. Let’s give him world class MMA/fighting skills. Now the important information… Let’s now assume he is a violent psychopath - someone who has killed many people with his bare hands. Maybe even a serial killer, and would not flinch or hesitate for a second when faced with the opportunity to do to a chimp what a chimp would do to a man. In these threads, we always arm the chimp with the aggression and assume the human will attempt to fight fairly… but for this scenario - the human has a greater will to get out of there alive. He’s able to use the adrenaline rush as an aid, not a hindrance. In my opinion, it could go either way. In a real life fight between two humans (unknown to each other). The winner is always the person who is willing to go further in pursuit of victory. Most people fight fairly - but if you fight a person who is willing to bite, strike in the throat, eye gauge or break anything he can get his hands on, I’ll bet my money on that guy every time. Untrained violent psychopath vs trained MMA guy in a bar brawl… no contest. The MMA guy won’t expect a random dude to gauge his eyes out or attack him like a chimp… but if he was also a violent psychopath… I know I’m rambling now, so I’ll stop and let someone else chime in with their opinions based on the notion that the guy fighting the chimp is an absolute fucknut and fantasizes about eating chimps for breakfast. Would this be an even fight? Would the guy with the height, weight, skill, intelligence and thirst for blood advantage tear the chimp apart? Or would the chimp still likely win and celebrate with a finger and toe sandwich? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/2 "2015-10-24T22:27:16Z")
I suspect there is only a short window where the human is more pissed than the chimp once the nasty fighting starts. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/3 "2015-10-24T23:01:18Z")
If the psycho-clone has a high tolerance for pain _and_ gets lucky I can see him winning. The problem is that chimps have better [weaponry](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qLeJ3My3WzU/UKeV41TsalI/AAAAAAAAAq8/a-kAhqveUgI/s1600/Yawning+Darwin.JPG) than we do and no hesitation about using them. In order to kill a chimp bare-handed either, even if you are strong and skilled, you have to get close enough and expose yourself to those teeth and it ripping your face off. Maybe he could just bellyflop on it and let his mass crush it. A bit anticlimactic maybe… ---
**Author:** ![guitario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@guitario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guitario)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/4 "2015-10-24T23:53:03Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I suspect there is only a short window where the human is more pissed than the chimp once the nasty fighting starts. Why? Both chimps and humans have a history of extreme violence and in my situation, the human is equally matched in terms of aggression and willingness to do whatever it takes. A chimps main advantage is its savagery - which is negated by an opponent equally as savage. There is a scene in the The Walking Dead when one of the main characters (name omitted for spoiler reasons), is held against his will and faced with witnessing an unthinkable action. He responds by tearing a huge chunk out of his captors neck with just his teeth. Not the actions of a rational man, but he had no other choice. Yes it’s a show - but people are capable of anything when faced with certain death. We’re animals too, and we have the same instincts as a chimp in the primal part of our brain. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/5 "2015-10-25T00:07:53Z")
> [@guitario](#): > > A chimps main advantage is its savagery - which is negated by an opponent equally as savage. I don’t believe a human can go as all out apeshit(snerk) as a chimp. However, if you hit the chimp with both hands at once, it’s all over for the chimp. You old folks will remember _that_ thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/6 "2015-10-25T00:24:59Z")
> [@guitario](#): > > Why? Both chimps and humans have a history of extreme violence and in my situation, the human is equally matched in terms of aggression and willingness to do whatever it takes. > > A chimps main advantage is its savagery - which is negated by an opponent equally as savage. Umm… where are you getting this? Have you\* read\* any of those other Man v Chimp threads you refer to? The “main advantage” is not “savagery” but that the upper body strength of a chimp is 2+ times stronger than a full grown human. The chimp pulls parts of faces off like tearing paper and pulls human ears and fingers and other body parts off with ease. ---
**Author:** ![guitario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@guitario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guitario)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/7 "2015-10-25T00:52:28Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Umm… where are you getting this? Have you\* read\* any of those other Man v Chimp threads you refer to? The “main advantage” is not “savagery” but that the upper body strength of a chimp is 2+ times stronger than a full grown human. The chimp pulls parts of faces off like tearing paper and pulls human ears and fingers and other body parts off with ease. I have read those threads, and various other articles online. I know they are significantly stronger than the average man - but that’s largely static pulling tests and basic strength vs weight ratios. A chimp weighing less than half that of Mariusz (a man significantly stronger than average) isn’t going to have the same advantages. Yes the chimp will still have greater pulling strength, but what is anchoring that chimp to the floor when a weight twice as much is also pulling in the other direction (or at least resisting)? If inclined, a human could tear someones face apart with their bare hands. We all could. It’s their savagery that inflicts the wounds often seen when they turn against their owners. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/8 "2015-10-25T01:17:26Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The “main advantage” is not “savagery” but that the upper body strength of a chimp is 2+ times stronger than a full grown human. The usual figure given is 4x as strong, based on the paper [“The Strength of Great Apes and the Speed of Humans” by Alan Walker](http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/592023?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents), which cites some pretty old but perfectly valid research: > [@](#): > > Bauman (1923, 1926) showed that adult male and female chimpanzees held long in captivity were much stronger than any of several fit young football players when normalized for body mass. He had the animals (when they felt like it) and the students pull on a calibrated metal loop dynamometer. The female recorded a two-handed pull of 1,260 pounds,while the male recorded a one-handed pull of 847 pounds. The strongest student managed a one-handed pull of 210 pounds and a two-handed pull of 491 pounds. When normalized for body mass, this meant that the chimpanzees were more than four times as strong as the men. So he wasn’t even really comparing to an “average” man, but “fit young football players”, presumably stronger than average. Which kinda blows out the OP’s theory that some jacked-up MMA fighter would be anywhere near a match for a chimp. > [@guitario](#): > > If inclined, a human could tear someones face apart with their bare hands. We all could. I haven’t run the tests, but I’m not so sure about that. > [@guitario](#): > > Yes the chimp will still have greater pulling strength, but what is anchoring that chimp to the floor when a weight twice as much is also pulling in the other direction (or at least resisting)? You’re right that the higher mass human would certainly have F = MA on his side, but bottom line, I just don’t think that would be enough to make up for the massive strength deficit. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/9 "2015-10-25T01:22:22Z")
> [@guitario](#): > > It’s their savagery that inflicts the wounds often seen when they turn against their owners. If they can get that pissed at the people they know and love, I’d imagine they really won’t hold back against some stranger attacking them ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/10 "2015-10-25T01:34:08Z")
OK, but what if the man had, like, really long and strong fingernails? That he sharpened? Plus he could shave his head, and wear some good goggles. That would make it pretty even, right? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/11 "2015-10-25T01:39:01Z")
The googles…they do nothing! ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/12 "2015-10-25T01:42:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I have read those threads, and various other articles online. I know they are significantly stronger than the average man - but that’s largely static pulling tests and basic strength vs weight ratios. > > A chimp weighing less than half that of Mariusz (a man significantly stronger than average) isn’t going to have the same advantages. Yes the chimp will still have greater pulling strength, but what is anchoring that chimp to the floor when a weight twice as much is also pulling in the other direction (or at least resisting)? > > If inclined, a human could tear someones face apart with their bare hands. We all could. > > It’s their savagery that inflicts the wounds often seen when they turn against their owners. I think you are wrong here. I can close the [COC 1.5](http://www.ironmind.com/product-info/grip-strength-training-tools/captains-of-crush-grippers/)and can [almost close the COC 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzXNBIvacik) which puts me in at least the top 2-5 percent or so of human hand strength and there’s no way I could pull the flesh off a person face using just finger grip strength. You’re making a lot of assumptions in this scenario that I don’t think are going to pan out. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/13 "2015-10-25T01:44:55Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I think you are wrong here. I can close the [COC 1.5](http://www.ironmind.com/product-info/grip-strength-training-tools/captains-of-crush-grippers/)and can [almost close the COC 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzXNBIvacik) which puts me in at least the top 2-5 percent or so of human hand strength and there’s no way I could pull the flesh off a person face using just finger grip strength. You’re making a lot of assumptions in this scenario that I don’t think are going to pan out. Did you quote the wrong person? I think you meant to quote the OP. I also expressed doubt about his remark that anyone could “tear someone’s face apart with their bare hands”. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/14 "2015-10-25T01:45:57Z")
All that savagery, cunning and aggression the human possesses is equalized after the first punch, kick or scratch to the chimp. At that point the “average chimp on the street” turns into a seriously pissed off chimp. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/15 "2015-10-25T01:50:19Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The googles…they do nothing! I was thinking they’d increase eyeball retention time by a few seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/16 "2015-10-25T04:54:30Z")
I’m not sure if pressure and pain points that a trained human fighter would target are the same in chimps as they are in humans. Do they have a vulnerable area? ---
**Author:** ![guitario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@guitario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guitario)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/17 "2015-10-25T09:28:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I’m not sure if pressure and pain points that a trained human fighter would target are the same in chimps as they are in humans. Do they have a vulnerable area? They have the same body parts we do, in the same places. Looking through these replies, it seems people are misunderstanding the point I’m trying to make. There aren’t many people on the planet who would fit the criteria I laid out in the OP (if any) - as someone that large, trained and psychotic is probably already dead (or in prison)… but I’m just trying to apply common sense to the various man vs chimp threads from the past that all give chimps super powers and assume they are absolutely invincible. Just like a human, if the chimp receives a significant punch or kick to the jaw it will drop. It has bones that will break, soft tissue that can be attacked (eyes and genitals), and we don’t know how it will react if it suffers a serious injury - will it enter self preservation mode or will it continue fighting? Just like a human, I would assume it would depend on that specific chimp and its mentality/personality. Are the chimps that go nuts and tear off ears and fingers mentally sound? Obviously not. Is this how every chimp would act? Or just the ones with years of pent up rage and/or untreated mental illness? I doubt any of these people tried to fight back. They most likely froze with fear. Like how most people who are attacked in the street rarely stand their ground. Most people simply don’t have it in them to retaliate when suddenly thrust in that situation - they try and run. The adrenaline dump is too great. It’s why even many professional martial artists and boxers get their ass handed to them in a real confrontation - because they simply aren’t used to dealing with someone who isn’t bound by the rules of their game. In these debates - people are still cherry picking the absolute best/most savage traits and examples of a chimp vs the weaknesses of man - that’s a bias. I’m supposing a hypothetical scenario, whereby everything is as evenly matched as possible. Strength, intent to kill, will to survive etc. People go on about the pulling and grip strength of a chimp vs a man, but in my scenario - when pitted against the absolute peak of potential human strength - the gap between this man and a chimp is a lot closer than your average gym meathead and an average sized woman. Yet, we wouldn’t totally discount the possibility that if sufficiently motivated to survive, this woman could land a deadly blow on a guy - even if it is sheer luck. There was a forum I read the other day that had this discussion, and it was based on physics and what a man had to do to win, rather than from the viewpoint of his weaknesses - and that had some good debates. Just a shame it was from about 5 years ago, so I couldn’t contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/18 "2015-10-25T10:27:54Z")
Also a chimps fingers are longer so they can hold a grip tighter. So if they get ahold of your hand, your not going to break free. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/19 "2015-10-25T11:07:08Z")
> [@guitario](#): > > Are the chimps that go nuts and tear off ears and fingers mentally sound? Obviously not. Is this how every chimp would act? Or just the ones with years of pent up rage and/or untreated mental illness? OK, that is the most ridiculous thing I think I’ve ever read on here. Chimpanzees do not have “pent up rage and/or untreated mental illness”. They are primitive animals. They don’t sit around ruminating about all the girl chimps who have rejected them. Or lie in bed all day because they suffer from depression. What they do have is far higher levels of **testosterone** than adult male humans, a hormone known to cause aggression and aggressive behavior. ---
**Author:** ![guitario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@guitario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guitario)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663/20 "2015-10-25T11:39:42Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > OK, that is the most ridiculous thing I think I’ve ever read on here. Chimpanzees do not have “pent up rage and/or untreated mental illness”. They are primitive animals. They don’t sit around ruminating about all the girl chimps who have rejected them. Or lie in bed all day because they suffer from depression. > > What they do have is far higher levels of **testosterone** than adult male humans, a hormone known to cause aggression and aggressive behavior. I don’t want to start an argument with anyone here, or veer too far from the topic, but depression is an illness. It’s a physical illness of the brain, and affects many animals. Testosterone levels do not cause aggression by itself. Blood serum testosterone levels in male chimps is roughly the same as that of an adult male human - with the difference being how their muscles and androgen receptors bind to testosterone which enables them to engage more muscle fibres per muscular contraction when compared to the average human. [Patterns of Human Growth - Barry Bogin - Google Books](http://tinyurl.com/ozd6gvt) - link. Besides, the guy in my scenario has blood serum testosterone levels 8-10 times higher than natural levels - which is typical of the testosterone supplementation in bodybuilders and elite powerlifters. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-chimp-fight-to-the-death-a-different-perspective/735663.md?page=2)