# Man vs Society books where society is right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 27, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950 "2007-02-27T23:43:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/21 "2007-02-28T20:45:59Z")
In Jerry Pournelle and S.M. Stirling’s [_The Prince_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Sparta) series, the human colony planet of Sparta has an elaborate constitution designed by political scientists. There are two kings and two royal families, as in ancient Sparta. There is a Senate – at one point, discussing how the Senate is elected, Prince Lysander, heir of one of the Spartan thrones, says, “I’d hate to have to explain it.” Public elections play a role. Citizenship is not a birthright, but must be earned through militia service and various tests; nevertheless, some families are definitely more likely than others to produce citizens. A substantial portion, probably a majority, of the world’s population are “helots” – noncitizens with no vote; this class includes nearly all recent immigrants or the children of such. What legal or other advantages citizenship carries with it, other than the right to vote or hold office, is never made clear, but helots are definitely of lower socioeconomic status. At any rate, the helots feel oppressed enough to start a political movement, and ultimately an armed rebellion, demanding universal suffrage. It’s a lot like the situation in Apartheid South Africa except we’re supposed to sympathize with Botha, not Mandela. The heroes of the story are the defenders of the system – Prince Lysander, and Falkenberg the mercenary general, and their followers. The leaders of the rebel movement are portrayed as hypocrites or fiends, their foot soldiers as dupes and brutes. At the end, the helot rebels have penetrated the streets of the capital, and the city’s merchants, professionals and other petit-bourgeoisie – all of them citizens, militia-trained and currently mobilized – fight them down in a to-the-knife street battle in which the rebels are all but exterminated. A genuine class war, with the upper and middle classes completely defeating the lower. And this is the happy ending. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/22 "2007-02-28T20:56:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sefton] As **BrainGlutton** mentioned, **Crime and Punishment** is a good one. So is **The Demolished Man** by Bester. Kafka said that “In the fight between you and the world, back the world,” but I can’t think of any of his novels where society is necessarily right. [/QUOTE] What about “The Penal Colony”? The conflict between the last follower of the old commadant and society could qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/23 "2007-02-28T21:21:43Z")
_The Caine Mutiny_? Lt. Greenwald’s defense case rested on the idea that the mounting incompetence of one ship’s captain is nothing compared to the sanctity of the chain of command in wartime. Greenwald lost, but said aloud that the shouldn’t have, and that the mutineers should have been ashamed of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/24 "2007-02-28T22:13:46Z")
You have it backwards. Greenwald won, by arguing that the mutiny was justified because Queeg was unfit. Then, after, he said aloud that he shouldn’t have won, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/25 "2007-02-28T22:20:23Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] What about ‘‘Notes from Underground’’ by Dostoevsky? [/QUOTE] I was thinking of the other novella that often accompanies it - “The Double.” One of my fondest memories of my Madness in Literature class came when pretentious git who enjoyed the sound of her voice so much that no one else could get a word in edgewise most classes was arguing at length that That the main character really did have a doppleganger who was doing everything wrong and even the professor who usually let her dominate the class told her that she was wrong and being tiresome! We all wished he’d done that more often… ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/26 "2007-03-01T03:12:12Z")
**Zombie** , by Joyce Carol Oates (story from the POV of a Dahmer-esque serial killer) **Grendel** , by John Gardner (Grendel is a man-eating monster, so it’s not so much man v. society, it’s more monster v. society, but he is self-admittedly wrong) **Oedipus Rex** , by Sophocles (though arguably Oedipus is a victim of venomous fate, he’s also an arrogant, violent man who is somewhat responsible for his own downfall) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/27 "2007-03-01T03:50:02Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] _The Caine Mutiny_? Lt. Greenwald’s defense case rested on the idea that the mounting incompetence of one ship’s captain is nothing compared to the sanctity of the chain of command in wartime. Greenwald lost, but said aloud that the shouldn’t have, and that the mutineers should have been ashamed of themselves. [/QUOTE] As Captain Amazing notes, you’ve given a perfect example, but the explanation is all wrong. The men who rebelled against Lieutenant Commander Queeg thought they were heroes standing up to a tyrant. While Greenwald gets the mutineers exonerated, he also makes them realize that they were wrong. He gets them to see that Queeg’s paranoia was justified. After all, Queeg WAS surrounded by disloyal officers (most noably Keefer) who disrespected him, undermined his authority, made him a laughingstock to the crew. Even if Queeg was a petty jerk (and he often was!), he might not have become utterly isolated if his men had shown him some small sign of support. Perhaps Maryk could have swayed Queeg away from the dark side if Queeg hadn’t become (justly) convinced that his junior officers were his enemies. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/28 "2007-03-01T10:05:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] In Jerry Pournelle and S.M. Stirling’s [_The Prince_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Sparta) series, [snip synopsis] [/QUOTE] Thanks, Brain, you’ve confirmed what I’ve thought since I threw the first POS _Draka_ book at the wall - I should steer well clear of Stirling just to keep my blood pressure down. Pity, I mostly like other things Pournelle’s collaborated on. **Fiver** , I don’t think _TSMD_ qualifies - Foyle has to _break_ the society he’s in to save it, so how right can it be? mmm, I’m just being contrarian, but I’m struggling to come up with any good examples here. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/29 "2007-03-01T10:32:45Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Camus’ ‘‘The Stranger’’? Suppose an argument could be made either way. [/QUOTE] This is the novel I came in to mention. I’d also like to add my support for Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Sefton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Sefton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sefton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/30 "2007-03-01T14:17:11Z")
If the conflict was Man vs. Nature instead of Man vs. Society, _Moby Dick_ would be a fine example. But it’s not… I dunno. It’s a short story, but how about Dickens’ _A Christmas Carol_? If you include plays, Shaw’s _Man and Superman_ would be a good one. Can’t think of many novels, though, except for crime fiction where the criminal is the protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/31 "2007-03-01T18:21:28Z")
How about _Bartleby the Scrivener_? That “I prefer not to” schtick got really old, really fast. (Was that written by Hawthorne, or Melville? Been too long since high school.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/32 "2007-03-01T18:42:47Z")
_The Turner Diaries_. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/33 "2007-03-01T18:44:25Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Thanks, Brain, you’ve confirmed what I’ve thought since I threw the first POS _Draka_ book at the wall - I should steer well clear of Stirling just to keep my blood pressure down. Pity, I mostly like other things Pournelle’s collaborated on. [/QUOTE] Well, if you think the Draka are supposed to be the heroes, I guess you shouldn’t have thrown the book away. The Draka are monsters. The fact that one or two of them have smidgeons of concience doesn’t make them any less monstrous. They are clearly and unambigiously presented as monsters, more and more monstrous as the series continues. OK, I gotta admit, Stirling has a thing for lesbian warrior women. And fuedalism. And sexual slavery. But the fact that he’s obsessed with sexual slavery doesn’t neccesarily mean he’s in FAVOR of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/34 "2007-03-01T18:44:51Z")
[QUOTE=mbh] How about _Bartleby the Scrivener_? That “I prefer not to” schtick got really old, really fast. (Was that written by Hawthorne, or Melville? Been too long since high school.) [/QUOTE] Melville, first published in 1853. My reply to Bartleby: “You’d ‘prefer not to’? Fine. You’re fired. Clear out your desk.” ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/35 "2007-03-01T18:47:57Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] I’d also like to add my support for Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment. [/QUOTE] I would have mentioned that one too, but every time I try to read that book I get too depressed and never end up finishing it. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/36 "2007-03-01T19:06:09Z")
You’d probably have to find something in the original Russian. For real literature. . .maybe “Goofus & Gallant”. Or “Diary of Anne Frank”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/37 "2007-03-01T19:24:33Z")
Wait, “Anne Frank”? So the Nazis were right? In what way is “The Diary of Anne Frank” an example where the protagonist was wrong and society was right? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/38 "2007-03-01T19:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Wait, “Anne Frank”? So the Nazis were right? In what way is “The Diary of Anne Frank” an example where the protagonist was wrong and society was right? [/QUOTE] Were the Nazis Anne Frank’s society? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/39 "2007-03-01T19:46:27Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] Were the Nazis Anne Frank’s society? [/QUOTE] Probably not if you broke it down, but that’s the kind of joke I was going for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950/40 "2007-03-01T22:45:28Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Thanks, Brain, you’ve confirmed what I’ve thought since I threw the first POS _Draka_ book at the wall - I should steer well clear of Stirling just to keep my blood pressure down. Pity, I mostly like other things Pournelle’s collaborated on. [/QUOTE] Well, _The Prince_ would appear to be far more reflective of Pournelle’s politics than Stirling’s. It’s far from clear Stirling **has** any politics (and if he has, they are probably better expressed in such solo projects as the [Nantucket series.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M._Stirling#Nantucket_series)) Pournelle, OTOH, definitely has definite politics, and is as close to a Buchananite paleocon as an educated and sane person can be – just check out his [blog.](http://www.jerrypournelle.com/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-vs-society-books-where-society-is-right/393950.md?page=3)