# Man who put abortion-inducing drug in girlfriend's drink gets 22 years in prison -attempted homicide **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932 "2018-10-14T13:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/41 "2018-10-15T01:55:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > To be clear, he absolutely deserves jail time for trying this. The issue at question in the OP is whether we can square laws that convict him of attempted homicide with abortion rights. Absolutely - and it’s the correct thing to do - otherwise, the slippery slope has men causing miscarriages to get out of child support payments. As others have rightly said- the difference here is one of choice - and the status of the unborn fetus is entirely in the mother’s realm of choice - and I have no issue with harsh punishment for those that would cause harm to said fetus outside of said choice for the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/42 "2018-10-15T01:57:34Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Absolutely - and it’s the correct thing to do - otherwise, the slippery slope has men causing miscarriages to get out of child support payments. I see no problem hitting the guys who try it with assault charges that can come with several years in prison and hefty fines. That should dissuade most and the ones not dissuaded likely wouldn’t be by stiffer penalties. But I think you are missing the point of the OP to try and square this crime with legal abortion. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/43 "2018-10-15T03:02:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This morning I came across this article: [Man who put abortion-inducing drug in girlfriend’s drink gets 22 years in prison](https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/10/09/judge-imposes-22-year-sentence-case-involving-abortion-inducing-drug/1567018002/) > > The short version is a man tried to give his pregnant girlfriend an abortion-inducing drug without her knowledge. She did not ingest the drug but his plan was found out and he was convicted of attempted murder of the unborn child. (As it happens she miscarried later unrelated to this.) > > What struck me about this is the disconnect where we allow a woman to terminate a pregnancy yet sentence this man to 22 years in prison for attempted murder. I see no disconnect. I heartily endorse the court’s sentence, but I would prefer that it was characterized as a violation of the pregnant woman’s sanctity and not a violation of the unborn child’s rights. The question of whether or not this life is precious or disposable is _hers_. If _she_ opts to end it, that’s one thing; if anyone else opts to end it without her consent, that should be a high crime and treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/44 "2018-10-15T03:41:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I see no problem hitting the guys who try it with assault charges that can come with several years in prison and hefty fines. That should dissuade most and the ones not dissuaded likely wouldn’t be by stiffer penalties. > > But I think you are missing the point of the OP to try and square this crime with legal abortion. nt missing the point at all - you square it by noting the intent of the person ‘causing’ the abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/45 "2018-10-15T04:03:45Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > The question of whether or not this life is precious or disposable is _hers_. Is your life dependent on how much someone else values it? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/46 "2018-10-15T04:04:51Z")
> [@simster](#): > > nt missing the point at all - you square it by noting the intent of the person ‘causing’ the abortion. You are _definitely_ missing the point of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/47 "2018-10-15T04:18:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is your life dependent on how much someone else values it? Well, if my life consists of being inside another person’s body, I’m okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/48 "2018-10-15T04:51:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You are _definitely_ missing the point of the OP. Sorry - I should have said ‘right’ not ‘intent’. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/49 "2018-10-15T04:54:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Sorry - I should have said ‘right’ not ‘intent’. Still missing it… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/50 "2018-10-15T04:57:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if my life consists of being inside another person’s body, I’m okay with it. This is an easy one to punt back but since I am pro choice I won’t give the others ammunition and it is not really the gist of the thread so you win the point. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/51 "2018-10-15T05:03:22Z")
The fetus is clearly human. Enough in society have determined that a human at that level of development is unworthy of intrinsic protections. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/52 "2018-10-15T05:12:06Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Still missing it… then quit playing games and explain how so - ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/53 "2018-10-15T05:16:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes, a despicable crime was committed due to lack of consent. It should be punished pretty severely I think. The question is what the crime is defined as. > > It is attempted murder if the intent was to kill what is defined as a human life. > > Is this that? > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That doesn’t explain away the disconnect. Are there any other cases where it’s someone other than the victim who gives or withholds consent? > > Who’s the victim here? If this is a crime against the woman, then “attempted homicide” isn’t the appropriate charge, because she’s not the one he was attempting to kill. If it’s a crime against the unborn child, then consent isn’t an issue; fetuses don’t consent to abortions. It’s a crime against the woman. Forcing her to have an involuntary abortion is a crime just like forcing her to have involuntary sex is a crime. Just because that same woman might consent to having an abortion or to having sex in different circumstances does not make it okay to force her to do it when she doesn’t consent. Which is what I said in my previous post. When I said the issue was lack of consent, did you seriously think I was suggesting we ask the fetus for consent? Or for her husband’s consent or her father’s or her pastor’s? It was obvious whose consent was missing and therefore who the victim of the crime was. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/54 "2018-10-15T10:05:01Z")
I can put my dog /horse down if he’s been grievously injured and it’s deemed appropriate. That doesn’t mitigate my abusing or killing my animal, even attempting to kill it, for any other reason. Nor should it. This isn’t different from that, in my opinion. The ability to legally kill my pet does NOT open the door to doing so being okay, regardless of circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/55 "2018-10-15T12:51:45Z")
Jeez, this thread is frustrating. No one is arguing that it shouldn’t be a crime to try and secretly cause a woman to abort. The questions are, as I see them: Is it a crime against the woman or the fetus? Is the crime assault or homicide (or murder? Are they the same in this case?). That’s the point of this thread. Saying, “yes, this guy should definitely go to jail for the despicable thing he did” is missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/56 "2018-10-15T12:57:29Z")
(Sorry for the double post) I should clarify – the law today says that it _is_ a crime against the fetus. So, where I wrote “Is it a crime…”, etc., I should have written, “Should it be a crime…”, etc. The OP is asking, I believe, should that be the case? And, if you think it should be, how does that square with abortion rights? OP – hopefully, I’m not misrepresenting your position. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/57 "2018-10-15T13:06:51Z")
You need a kidney. I’m the perfect donor and I agree to give you one. Fine You need a kidney. I’m the perfect donor, but do not agree to give you one. You are not a doctor, but you drug me and take out one of kidneys, and get a doctor to put it into you. Not fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/58 "2018-10-15T13:15:38Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > You need a kidney. I’m the perfect donor and I agree to give you one. Fine > > You need a kidney. I’m the perfect donor, but do not agree to give you one. You are not a doctor, but you drug me and take out one of kidneys, and get a doctor to put it into you. > > Not fine with that. And, neither is anyone. Here’s the question in the OP (I believe). Should that be a crime against you or (to stretch your analogy to the breaking point) should it be a crime against the kidney? The way the law is currently written, it’s a crime against the, uh, kidney. The analogy, like many abortion-related analogies, really breaks down. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/59 "2018-10-15T14:08:15Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Jeez, this thread is frustrating. > > No one is arguing that it shouldn’t be a crime to try and secretly cause a woman to abort. The questions are, as I see them: Is it a crime against the woman or the fetus? Is the crime assault or homicide (or murder? Are they the same in this case?). That’s the point of this thread. > > Saying, “yes, this guy should definitely go to jail for the despicable thing he did” is missing the point. I have no issue with it being a crime against the fetus - in this case the fetus ‘has rights to life’ so long as the mother chooses to allow it. Seems to me that people want to make a bigger deal of it than it is - The mother is free to abort carrying the fetus, no one else is allowed to choose that for her (save a bonafide medical emergency where the mother is unable to answer one way or the other (unconscious) ) . Having an accident (car wreck,for example) where the fetus is lost is very different than attempting to force an abortion that would not happen otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932/60 "2018-10-15T14:10:59Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > And, neither is anyone. Here’s the question in the OP (I believe). Should that be a crime against you or (to stretch your analogy to the breaking point) should it be a crime against the kidney? The way the law is currently written, it’s a crime against the, uh, kidney. > > The analogy, like many abortion-related analogies, really breaks down. I was going to post that analogy as well so I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-who-put-abortion-inducing-drug-in-girlfriends-drink-gets-22-years-in-prison-attempted-homicide/822932.md?page=4)