# Man/Woman, Chaser/Chased **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382 "2010-05-22T17:10:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/161 "2010-05-27T19:29:15Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > The guys I know who are notably successful in meeting women and dating all share the single characteristic of not really caring what women think and essentially spending no effort in trying to discern positive signals from noise. They don’t care what women think because what women think normally does not reconcile with their actions. You can’t pay attention to what they say. You have to read their body language and facial expressions. On several occassions, I have managed to predict which girl in a bar I would be hooking up with by the end of the night, before I even talked to anyone. How do I do this? I observe and pay attention. I’m not talking about obvious stuff like some girl asking me if she can give me a massage, grabbing my arm or playing with my hair. I’m talking about subtle clues that she may not even realize she is giving off. Who is she looking at when she think they aren’t looking at? Who is she NOT looking at a bit too hard? Understand that the role of the man is to pursue the woman, however the woman ultimately decides if you are worthy of pursuing her. And this decision is made before you even approach her. Typically she will send out subtle clues that she really wants you to come over and talk to her. > [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > No guy who isn’t an impossibly charming and handsome character on a television show is going to enjoy much success by simply smiling at women and hoping they’ll approach him and ask him out No, that would be creepy just standing there smiling at people like a crazy person. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/162 "2010-05-27T19:35:21Z")
Another thing I forgot to mention. Women want you to charm and romance them. They aren’t robots. That’s why simply going up to them and saying “you are exhibiting signs of interest. I find you attractivec and would like to reciprocate” doesn’t really work (unless you’re Dwight Shrute from The Office). ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/163 "2010-05-27T20:16:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Well, if you don’t care enough to at least try to figure these things out, then you lose the right to complain when things later don’t go your way. _Who’s complaining_? Maybe I’ve just completely misread him, so let’s ask directly. **Stranger** , are you complaining? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/164 "2010-05-27T20:36:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What I’m trying to get through to you is that _this is wrong_. > > To start with, men most often express interest NOT by telling a women they are are attracted to them and want to initiate a relationship with them. They start by asking a woman out to a restuarant or event. It is up to the woman to therefore read between the lines and decide whether she’s willing to take him up on his _implicit_ offer to date. > > If instead of asking a woman out to dinner, let’s suppose a man said “I have romantic interest in you; do I have your permission to start courting you?” It would extremely easy for women to give an unambiguous answer to this question. His intent is crystal clear and there is no “game playing” in there. But because guys are not this upfront, they don’t get upfront responses. If I have to make this point one more time in this thread, for real, I think I will scream. I suspect that many women would treat this as a sign of desperation, and they’d be right. Some degree of interest is implied by the asking out, but how can you tell if there is more until you are alone for a while. Both men and women have a wide range of communications styles, and running into one doesn’t give you a reason to generalize that all men or women have the same style. Neither my wife or daughter is the “I winked twice so he should know I’m interested” type. If a woman does this, she is not going to get much response from any but the men who read signs the best. Ditto for the men who are of the “I asked you to coffee, which means I am madly in love with you” variety. I’m of Shodan’s generation, and I was fairly clueless when I was dating, but not that clueless. My reaction to the suggestion of an explicit question about interest was exactly the same as his - “Ask her out, you fool.” It sometimes takes a while to get it. I’ve learned a lot by observing my daughter, who has just graduated from college. She doesn’t do games, but there are guys who are crazy interested in her who she is not at all interested in romantically. She’s made it pretty clear, but is willing to do things with them when it is convenient. (But not sex. She does have her standards.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/165 "2010-05-27T21:08:22Z")
When I was in college we were in the middle of the transition from the old prudish rules to co-ed dorms. Since I went to a school that was mostly male at the time, we had mixers, dances specifically to meet people of the opposite sex. While there was definitely a chaser/chased attitude, if a guy waited for signals he was not going to dance very much. You really needed to ask. I suspect women positioned themselves near guys they were interested in, or managed to bump into them, but I never asked the woman I met at one of these and dated for a long time her strategy. Anyhow, there are a lot more structured ways of getting dates today than when I was doing it. Perhaps it is tougher now that there are more non-romantic male-female pseudo dates - but we had these also 35 years ago. But there are plenty of ways of upping the level on those if you are interested. BTW, signaling doesn’t just involve sending your signal out there, it involves looking for an ACK signal. If a woman sends subtle signs, and there is no response, they can be amplified - up to the point there is acknowledgment or a clear negative is returned. If a guy asks a woman out to dinner, and nothing romantic happens, he might have to show some more interest - a hand on the shoulder, and see what happens. Different partners are going to require different signal intensities. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/166 "2010-05-27T21:13:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > On several occassions, I have managed to predict which girl in a bar I would be hooking up with by the end of the night, before I even talked to anyone. How do I do this? I observe and pay attention. I’m not talking about obvious stuff like some girl asking me if she can give me a massage, grabbing my arm or playing with my hair. I’m talking about subtle clues that she may not even realize she is giving off. Who is she looking at when she think they aren’t looking at? Who is she NOT looking at a bit too hard? Not all of us have this ability. Even so, I bet you weren’t born with it. You probably started guessing which girl was most interested, chatted her up, and found if you were right. Guys who make this guess and never bother to test it are going to be SOL whether they are right or not. Those of us who don’t read signals well will no doubt get shot down more than you, but we’ll still do better (if perhaps with a subset of women who make themselves more obvious) than someone who doesn’t even try. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/167 "2010-05-27T21:45:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think you are correct, but of course I’m long outta touch - but when I was a young guy, in my teens, there is no way I was casually hopping in the sack on a first date. Too true. And now it’s practically not a date without an orgasm. Wierd. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/168 "2010-05-27T22:20:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I suspect that many women would treat this as a sign of desperation, and they’d be right. Some degree of interest is implied by the asking out, but how can you tell if there is more until you are alone for a while. I’m not saying guys should be upfront like this. I’m simply saying that the coyness that supposedly frustrates men, ironically starts with them, from the beginning, when they mask their true desires behind the pretense of getting dinner or seeing a movie. The coyness serves a purpose for both men and women. An interested guy who is too frank and bold comes across desperate or intense, which could scare someone away and leave him lonely at night. A _disinterested_ woman who is too frank and bold comes across as presumptious and mean, which could lead to her getting a bad reputation as a bitch or incite a shouting match (or worse) with a guy who gets his feelings hurt. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/169 "2010-05-27T22:24:03Z")
I think one thing is pretty clear. There are not many guys say that misread signals lead them to take things to far. There are guys who say that they are not interested in what women are thinking or why they might be giving mixed signals, and that a woman who makes a man think she is interested in her- in any way- is somehow morally obligated to have sex with him. This a more likely cause of “rape culture” if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/170 "2010-05-27T22:52:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not saying guys should be upfront like this. I’m simply saying that the coyness that supposedly frustrates men, ironically starts with them, from the beginning, when they mask their true desires behind the pretense of getting dinner or seeing a movie. > > The coyness serves a purpose for both men and women. An interested guy who is too frank and bold comes across desperate or intense, which could scare someone away and leave him lonely at night. A _disinterested_ woman who is too frank and bold comes across as presumptious and mean, which could lead to her getting a bad reputation as a bitch or incite a shouting match (or worse) with a guy who gets his feelings hurt. Absolutely agree. There is one more thing. I suspect many men who want women to make their desires explicit are thinking of a gorgeous woman who they are too scared to ask. They may find that the ones whose signals they miss aren’t necessarily attractive to them. Which leads me to wonder how many men having problems are fishing for a shark in a wading pool. Not that anyone here has done this, but a guy who is complaining about not being able to get a date because no swimsuit models return his calls should realize that the problem isn’t with them. This goes for women also, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/171 "2010-05-27T22:57:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think one thing is pretty clear. > > There are not many guys say that misread signals lead them to take things to far. Not around here, anyway. > [@](#): > > There are guys who say that they are not interested in what women are thinking or why they might be giving mixed signals, and that a woman who makes a man think she is interested in her- in any way- is somehow morally obligated to have sex with him. > > This a more likely cause of “rape culture” if you ask me. I never hung around with people like this, but I suspect that those who do take things so far read a mixed signal (or even no signal) as a come-on. Some men are uncertain even if a woman is practically undressing him, so others might be certain when the “signal” is a short skirt or something. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/172 "2010-05-27T22:57:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Stranger** , are you complaining? That’s not my intention. I’m merely observing and commenting based upon my own experience and perspective, and any frustration expressed is largely directed at my own incompetence in dating and misreading what are supposed clear signals. > [@even\_sven](#): > > There are guys who say that they are not interested in what women are thinking or why they might be giving mixed signals, and that a woman who makes a man think she is interested in her- in any way- is somehow morally obligated to have sex with him. I’m genuinely curious as to who has said this, because I can’t imagine such a comment passing muster in even the most chauvinistic environment. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/173 "2010-05-29T08:47:50Z")
Have you guys seen “The Invention of Lying”? Yes, let’s be like that. “No, I would not like to go out with you because I do not find you physically attractive or intelligent enough, and ultimately, were things to progress long term, I do not want your DNA to contribute to my offspring. Your asking me on a date was mildly flattering, but moreover, I now feel uncomfortable around you, and will make efforts to avoid you in the future.” Just… no. Essentially, I agree with **sven** , and while I would not have played the Plan B game she did at the party, specifically because I don’t want there to be any ambiguity about how I feel about the guy, I do not find Plan B shenanigans to be necessarily female. Each gender does it, and it’s bad for the reasons described in this thread. Yes, men and women are different in some ways, but a lot of the complaints I am seeing in this thread do not stem from any special juju embedded into the XX-chromosome. It seems to boil down to inability to communicate well with others. > [@Jihi](#): > > I have to agree with this. I’m not exactly a social butterfly myself but I’ve never had problems dealing with women or making my interests known without it seeming ‘creepy’. Frankly if I find myself attracted to someone than I flirt with them. If they respond than I take it further, if they don’t then I smile and back off. I’ve never quite grasped what’s so difficult about this. Right. No, not all communication is explicitly verbal, and we all need to get better at understanding what people are trying to let us know. People have different communication styles, and breaking it down into Style Man and Style Woman gets us nowhere in understanding people who communicate differently than we do. Fuck me, running, I’m starting to sound like the instructor of that cheesy Diversity Feelings Training we were all forced to take at work last month. Cheese aside, conversely, we could all afford to be more upfront with what we’re thinking in order to avoid confusion, but sometimes that’s hard. Saying exactly, in clear unabridged terms, what you mean can sometimes be awkward, so in lieu of firmly stating “I think you’re ugly,” people will often try to give deliberate, but non-verbal, cues to another person in hopes that the person will get the hint, and feelings will be spared. This clearly does not always work. More people, male and female, need to get better at finding an approach between “You’re ugly” and trying to send some signal of un-interest, hoping the person picks up on it so that they’re not forced to awkwardly say that they’re not interested. > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > [O]ne thing that frustrates me is feeling like I have a pretty good read on a girl and then not getting a straight rejection. Straight rejection sucks, but it sucks more to find out in a more roundabout way. Is she playing hard to get and trying to judge how interested I am, in which case I need to be more aggressive, or is she not interested but doesn’t want to hurt my feelings, in which case I should give up? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > In these type of situations, when you’re clearly confused and don’t know what’s going on, do you ever come out and ask her to set you straight? > > “Hey, I need to ask you something. Don’t be afraid of being honest with me, either. It’s totally cool. I just need to know one thing, because I like you and I’m having a hard time figuring out if you feel the same way. Are you interested in dating me?” > > **If you find this to be a hard, awkward thing to express, then can you really fault a woman for not expressing her feelings any more directly?** Bingo. Bolding is, of course, mine. > [@Malthus](#): > > The only conclusion I draw from the numerous threads such as these is that being unable to flirt effectively is a worse drawback for men than for women. Ah, Malthus… Which reminds me, I always forget to activate my signature what I post. > [@ed malin](#): > > I don’t understand how any of you actually get dates if this is the way you act. They don’t. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/174 "2010-05-29T18:40:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Not all of us have this ability. Even so, I bet you weren’t born with it. You probably started guessing which girl was most interested, chatted her up, and found if you were right. Guys who make this guess and never bother to test it are going to be SOL whether they are right or not. Those of us who don’t read signals well will no doubt get shot down more than you, but we’ll still do better (if perhaps with a subset of women who make themselves more obvious) than someone who doesn’t even try. Let’s just say that it is the result of many many years of trial and error and observation starting around junior high. > [@Blaster Master](#): > > [O]ne thing that frustrates me is feeling like I have a pretty good read on a girl and then not getting a straight rejection. Straight rejection sucks, but it sucks more to find out in a more roundabout way. Is she playing hard to get and trying to judge how interested I am, in which case I need to be more aggressive, or is she not interested but doesn’t want to hurt my feelings, in which case I should give up? Remember that movie “Hitch”? Of course she isn’t going to straight reject you because she’s a nice person and doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. The trick is trying to figure out if “no” means “get lost jerk” or “try harder stupid”. Like it or not, the courting ritual is a game of bluffs, quid pro quo, looking for bigger better deals and hedging losses. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382/175 "2010-05-29T18:44:35Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Let’s just say that it is the result of many many years of trial and error and observation starting around junior high. > > Remember that movie “Hitch”? Of course she isn’t going to straight reject you because she’s a nice person and doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. The trick is trying to figure out if “no” means “get lost jerk” or “try harder stupid”. How do you (the personal you, not the impersonal one) figure out which it is? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/man-woman-chaser-chased/540382.md?page=8)