# Manafort and Assange - Unbelievable **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 28, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189 "2018-11-28T06:00:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/21 "2018-11-28T16:32:49Z")
I also thought this was already known. Back in 2017 it was news. Not the Manafort connection, but that suprises no-one. [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/assange-timed-wikileaks-release-of-democratic-emails-to-harm-hillary-clinton.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/us/politics/assange-timed-wikileaks-release-of-democratic-emails-to-harm-hillary-clinton.html) It is known that Assange has a strong grudge against Clinton. > **[Why WikiLeaks hates Hillary Clinton](https://www.vox.com/2016/9/15/12929262/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-julian-assange-hate)** > > Like, really, really hates. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/22 "2018-11-28T16:37:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Remember when the CIA was headed by a get-her-hands-dirty torturer? Well, if you want to deny the citations with bullshit whackery, go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/23 "2018-11-28T16:47:27Z")
I recall Assange saying he would leave the embassy when Manning was out of prison. She’s been out almost 2 years now. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/24 "2018-11-28T18:12:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This might have already been addressed earlier in the thread, but assuming there was a lapse on the part of Ecuadorian embassy security, I’m wondering how someone like Manafort didn’t ring some alarm bells with MI5 or British intelligence. Manafort wasn’t exactly hiding his lobbying work in Ukraine. Quite possibly they did note it, but we wouldn’t know if they did, nor what they would have made of any such information. They’re not in the business of running public prosecutions, even if there were some identifiable evidence of a crime in UK law, which seems rather doubtful. They’re about collecting information and keeping it secret for their own purposes, and what they might or might not have done with this particular piece of information is another matter entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/25 "2018-11-28T18:16:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > First one I picked was just puffery from government hacks. This did not bode well for the remainder. Dude, it’s not a good look to challenge another poster’s cites while simultaneously admitting that you didn’t read them. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/26 "2018-11-28T19:02:52Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Personally, I’d rather the US be “influenced” by European nations than Russia. People in European nations are considerably [happier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#frb-inline) than us, and needless to say people in Russia are very much not. I have never understood this viewpoint that Russia is somehow not a European nation. It is true that the bulk of Russian territory is in Asia, but at the same time the bulk of Russians live in Europe. The Russian viewpoint is fundamentally European, and has been since Peter the Great. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/27 "2018-11-28T19:55:27Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Dude, it’s not a good look to challenge another poster’s cites while simultaneously admitting that you didn’t read them. I didn’t read #2-4 because the first one was BS. I asked for him to pull out what he thought was not BS. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/28 "2018-11-28T20:37:18Z")
Wow. Flat out admitting to arguing without reading. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/29 "2018-11-28T22:27:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I didn’t read #2-4 because the first one was BS. I asked for him to pull out what he thought was not BS. Sigh. No. You didn’t. Sage Rate said that there was “fairly good evidence that WikiLeaks is largely funded and protected by Russia” and then proceeded to provide 4 cites. You quoted all 4 cites and dismissed them with > [@you](#): > > Ok by evidence you mean Russia belligerent Mike Pompeo and James “Perjury” Clapper said so. Which, we now know, you said because you only looked at (perused? Clicked on? “Read” is pretty dubious at this point) the first link. By the way, the reason you got all indignant and didn’t read cites 2 through 4 is because a Director of National Intelligence and a Director of the CIA (who is now the Secretary of State\*) were cited as sources. **That** was your line in the sand. \*Confirmation is coming from inside the administration! ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/30 "2018-11-28T22:55:23Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Wow. Flat out admitting to arguing without reading. Yes I admitted that I didn’t read something someone linked to because I tried one of their cites and it was BS. I’m not going to keep clicking on their links if they want to throw some fluff in there. Give me the raw evidence or move on. > [@Moriarty](#): > > Sigh. > > No. You didn’t. > > Sage Rate said that there was “fairly good evidence that WikiLeaks is largely funded and protected by Russia” and then proceeded to provide 4 cites. You quoted all 4 cites and dismissed them with > > Which, we now know, you said because you only looked at (perused? Clicked on? “Read” is pretty dubious at this point) the first link. > > By the way, the reason you got all indignant and didn’t read cites 2 through 4 is because a Director of National Intelligence and a Director of the CIA (who is now the Secretary of State\*) were cited as sources. **That** was your line in the sand. > \*Confirmation is coming from inside the administration! Pompeo is an unhinged Russia baiter, and Clapper is known chiefly for blatant perjury and domestic spying. What reason would I have to lie to someone like yourself? In the past people have made a certain claim and when I questioned them about it, either the poster or someone else helpfully posted a direct quote. My gut feeling is there really is no good quote from the internal communications that would serve as evidence of Russia controlling Wikileaks. If there was, it would have been presented in the thread by now. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/31 "2018-11-28T23:23:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > In the past people have made a certain claim and when I questioned them about it, either the poster or someone else helpfully posted a direct quote. My gut feeling is there really is no good quote from the internal communications that would serve as evidence of Russia controlling Wikileaks. If there was, it would have been presented in the thread by now. Again, you are prevaricating. Originally, you doubted that there was any connection between Russia and Wikileaks. > [@you](#): > > I have no idea how colluding with Assange is being characterized as colluding with Russians, could someone fill me in? When provided info, you simply decided that the first snippet was not to your liking. Done, full stop. Never mind any of the rest, which includes (per the links you’re dismissing outright): > [@](#): > > One of the first public relationships between Russia and WikiLeaks emerged in April 2012, when the Russian-government funded RT — forced this week to register with the U.S. as a foreign agent — gave Assange his own talk show. > [@](#): > > The January 2017 U.S. intelligence report mentions the Kremlin’s connection with WikiLeaks through RT. > “The Kremlin’s principal international propaganda outlet RT (formerly Russia Today) has actively collaborated with WikiLeaks,” the report said. “RT’s editor-in-chief visited WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London in August 2013, where they discussed renewing his broadcast contract with RT, according to Russian and Western media. Russian media subsequently announced that RT had become ‘the only Russian media company’ to partner with WikiLeaks and had received access to ‘new leaks of secret information.’ RT routinely gives Assange sympathetic coverage and provides him a platform to denounce the United States.” > [@](#): > > In the summer of 2016, as WikiLeaks was publishing documents from Democratic operatives allegedly obtained by Kremlin-directed hackers, Julian Assange turned down a large cache of documents related to the Russian government, according to chat messages and a source who provided the records. > WikiLeaks declined to publish a wide-ranging trove of documents — at least 68 gigabytes of data — that came from inside the Russian Interior Ministry, according to partial chat logs reviewed by Foreign Policy. > [@](#): > > Russian officials, up to and including Putin himself, have defended Assange and WikiLeaks — with one Russian official even suggesting Assange deserves a Nobel Peace Prize. > [@](#): > > Assange claims to have inspired Snowden to flee to Russia: “I thought, and in fact advised Edward Snowden, that he would be safest in Moscow,” he told Democracy Now. A WikiLeaks employee, Sarah Harrison, literally flew with Snowden from Hong Kong (where he had been living) to Moscow. > In order to avoid extradition to Sweden, Assange holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. According to the Ecuadorian publication Focus Ecuador, Assange asked for control over the selection of his bodyguards, and insisted that they be Russian. > Assange used the WikiLeaks Twitter account to attack the 2016 Panama Papers leaks, which disclosed a $2 billion overseas account of Vladimir Putin’s. Assange labeled the leak a US-sponsored plot to undermine Putin and Russia. Now, to continue, you want evidence of Russia ‘controlling’ Wikileaks. Presumably, demonstrating that Assange is a conduit to Russia is no longer sufficient. We must show evidence of control. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/32 "2018-11-28T23:50:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > … My gut feeling is … Sounds good. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/33 "2018-11-29T02:29:27Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Again, you are prevaricating. > > Originally, you doubted that there was any connection between Russia and Wikileaks. > When provided info, you simply decided that the first snippet was not to your liking. Done, full stop. > > Never mind any of the rest, which includes (per the links you’re dismissing outright): > > Now, to continue, you want evidence of Russia ‘controlling’ Wikileaks. Presumably, demonstrating that Assange is a conduit to Russia is no longer sufficient. We must show evidence of control. The reporting has insinuated that colluding with WikiLeaks is the same as colluding with Russia. I never said there was no connection. I have a connection with my employer, it doesn’t follow that if you collude with me, you are colluding with the grocer. This is simple stuff. Perhaps we are dealing with a language barrier? Yes I also skimmed the second link and saw the things you quote. They were explained to my liking. Thing is, when I skim I usually read only quotes because many journalists like to spin narratives out of whole cloth. I am still waiting for the promised internal communications. I was asked what evidence would satisfy me. I answered. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/34 "2018-11-29T06:32:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes I also skimmed the second link and saw the things you quote. They were explained to my liking. Thing is, when I skim I usually read only quotes because many journalists like to spin narratives out of whole cloth. I am still waiting for the promised internal communications. I was asked what evidence would satisfy me. I answered. You’ve clicked and read 50% of the links, and found 50% of the information I mentioned. …Curious. Here’s some more: > **[WikiLeaked: Over 11,000 messages from private WikiLeaks chat released](https://emma.best/2018/07/29/11000-messages-from-private-wikileaks-chat-released/)** > > “Objectivity is short-hand for not having a significant pre-conceived agenda, eliding facts the audience would be interested in, or engaging in obvious falsehoods.” ~ WikiLeaks > Presented below are over 11,000 messages from the WikiLeaks + 10 chat,... > **[How Russia and WikiLeaks Became Allies Against the West](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2017/03/16/how-russia-and-wikileaks-became-allies-against-the-west-a57443)** > > The timing couldn’t have been better for Moscow. Russia was being accused by U.S. intelligence of hacking the 2016 presidential election in support of Donald Trump. > **[DNCLeak: Five times WikiLeaks and Russia have crossed paths](https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/dncleak-five-times-wikileaks-and-russia-have-crossed-paths-20160728-gqfq8b.html)** > > WikiLeaks and Russia just seem to keep crossing paths - here is a list of highlights. > **[Assange Met Repeatedly With Lobbyist for Oligarch](https://www.newsweek.com/lobbyist-russian-oligarch-linked-donald-trumps-campaign-manager-visited-986418)** > > The meetings could shed light on Assange's ties to Russia and the Trump campaign. Or, to summarize: Assange tends to speak up and show off his knowledge when Stone, Russia, or a “David Satter” are commented on in chat, otherwise he mostly ignores everyone; various people who have worked with WikiLeaks are worried about their possible Russian connections; WikiLeaks likes to echo Russian propaganda; Assange works for the Russian news; and one of Assange’s most frequent visitors is an official representative of a Russian oligarch. If you don’t trust the summaries, well then you know how to resolve that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/35 "2018-11-29T06:50:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > My gut feeling is there really is no good quote from the internal communications that would serve as evidence of Russia controlling Wikileaks. If there was, it would have been presented in the thread by now. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > They’re making a mistake because I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me. :dubious: > [@](#): > > …‘cause we’re not so different, he and I. We both get it. Guys like us, we’re not some brainiacs on the nerd patrol. We’re not members of the factinista. We go straight from the gut. Right, sir? > > That’s where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, “I did look it up, and that’s not true.” That’s 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that’s how our nervous system works. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/36 "2018-11-29T06:57:50Z")
For the record, I wouldn’t classify the relationship as Russia “controls” WikiLeaks, simply that they have significant leverage over them (as, presumably, does Ecuador) and WikiLeaks is operating on their own under that influence. Assange may well be a true believer and probably views it all as though he’s just biding his time until he gets the upper hand again and can lay into Russia, Ecuador, and anyone else that has ever used him. Personally, I would call that a delusion, and you need to interpret Assange’s words in that light. Unrelated, but I’ll also add that WikiLeaks served as the introducer and middle-man for Snowden and his case of asylum in Russia. See previous links. And I’ll also say, **WillFarnaby** , that if you can’t concentrate enough to read and your mind is racing too fast to be able to get past your initial gut reactions to actual meditation and data diving, then you may want to see a specialist in ADHD. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/37 "2018-11-29T11:05:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > For the record, I wouldn’t classify the relationship as Russia “controls” WikiLeaks, simply that they have significant leverage over them (as, presumably, does Ecuador) and WikiLeaks is operating on their own under that influence. Indeed. The nature of the game is precisely that they don’t need to “control”, in any visibly linear sense, anyone they can treat as a manipulable “useful idiot”. It’s far more to their advantage to be able to muddy the waters at arm’s length. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/38 "2018-11-29T12:24:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes I admitted that I didn’t read something someone linked to because I tried one of their cites and it was BS. I’m not going to keep clicking on their links if they want to throw some fluff in there. Give me the raw evidence or move on. Even better than [DIDN’T READ](https://i.imgur.com/OQx67ow.gif) – now we have a demand for spoon-feeding. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/39 "2018-11-29T13:07:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > For the record, I wouldn’t classify the relationship as Russia “controls” WikiLeaks, simply that they have significant leverage over them (as, presumably, does Ecuador) and WikiLeaks is operating on their own under that influence. > > Assange may well be a true believer and probably views it all as though he’s just biding his time until he gets the upper hand again and can lay into Russia, Ecuador, and anyone else that has ever used him. Personally, I would call that a delusion, and you need to interpret Assange’s words in that light. > > Unrelated, but I’ll also add that WikiLeaks served as the introducer and middle-man for Snowden and his case of asylum in Russia. See previous links. > > And I’ll also say, **WillFarnaby** , that if you can’t concentrate enough to read and your mind is racing too fast to be able to get past your initial gut reactions to actual meditation and data diving, then you may want to see a specialist in ADHD. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You’ve clicked and read 50% of the links, and found 50% of the information I mentioned. …Curious. > > Here’s some more: > > [WikiLeaked: Over 11,000 messages from private WikiLeaks chat released – emma best](https://emma.best/2018/07/29/11000-messages-from-private-wikileaks-chat-released/) > [How Russia and WikiLeaks Became Allies Against the West](https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/how-russia-and-wikileaks-became-allies-against-the-west-57443) > [DNCLeak: Five times WikiLeaks and Russia have crossed paths](https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/dncleak-five-times-wikileaks-and-russia-have-crossed-paths-20160728-gqfq8b.html) > [Julian Assange Met Repeatedly With Lobbyist for Russian Oligarch Linked to Donald Trump's Campaign Manager](https://www.newsweek.com/lobbyist-russian-oligarch-linked-donald-trumps-campaign-manager-visited-986418) > > Or, to summarize: > > Assange tends to speak up and show off his knowledge when Stone, Russia, or a “David Satter” are commented on in chat, otherwise he mostly ignores everyone; various people who have worked with WikiLeaks are worried about their possible Russian connections; WikiLeaks likes to echo Russian propaganda; Assange works for the Russian news; and one of Assange’s most frequent visitors is an official representative of a Russian oligarch. > > If you don’t trust the summaries, well then you know how to resolve that. That is a long long way from saying that colluding with Wikileaks is colluding with Russia. So the internal communications basically reveal nothing but more opportunities for speculation from clickbait journos. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Indeed. The nature of the game is precisely that they don’t need to “control”, in any visibly linear sense, anyone they can treat as a manipulable “useful idiot”. It’s far more to their advantage to be able to muddy the waters at arm’s length. More speculation, yippee. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > :rolleyes: > :dubious:😃 If you ignore your gut, I feel bad for you and doubt your ability to navigate life safely. In this case, my gut feeling was right on. The internal communications revealed nothing about the Wikileaks/Russia relationship. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189/40 "2018-11-29T13:11:15Z")
“In your guts, you know he’s nuts.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manafort-and-assange-unbelievable/825189.md?page=3)