# Management types - help me solve a workplace problem **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576 "2011-01-06T03:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/21 "2011-01-06T13:50:42Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Sergeants run the Army. Chiefs run the Navy. Gunnys run the Marines. Admins run any large business. Good admins actually let the boss think he does it. > Lesson #1 for young Whippersnappers coming in : “Your np’s may have forgotten more about this business than you will ever know. If you have at least three brain cells to rub together you will work with them and learn all you can. Make them feel valued and a vital part of the team, and things will be easy for you. Or you can piss them off, and you will wind up doing their job AND yours.” > Then you need to get selected nps to mentor the whippersnappers and bring them along. Perhaps a small bonus arrange for mentoring their new leaders. You know what they say, money talks, bullshit walks. Yeah, that’s pretty much what I tell them. It’s still a struggle, though, because the attitude is automatic and immediate, regardless of the whippersnappers’ initial or eventual competence, personality, mindset, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/22 "2011-01-06T13:55:28Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Yeah, that’s pretty much what I tell them. It’s still a struggle, though, because the attitude is automatic and immediate, regardless of the whippersnappers’ initial or eventual competence, personality, mindset, etc. But it seems that you have an endless supply of new P’s but a limited supply of NP’s. How much you make isn’t indicative of how much you’re actually worth, especially if you’re not going to listen. Go along to get along or get out and be replaced by someone who can. I suspect that your NP’s don’t feel important enough and the reaction is due to insecurity. Change the culture to respect them and it’ll go away. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/23 "2011-01-06T13:57:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t understand why you have a problem. It makes perfect sense for inexperienced people, immature people to be ordering around experienced, loyal, long term employees. Good thing you pay them twice as much also.:rolleyes: Since you are not there, and I am, allow me to re-phrase your remarks in order for them to be accurate: Inexperienced but educated younger workers of varying levels of maturity are appropriately delegating work to some lazy-ass, unmotivated, unskilled long-term employees who go out of their way to intimidate whomever they can in order to avoid actually doing the work for which they are appropriately compensated. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/24 "2011-01-06T14:00:11Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > It sounds like this is a pretty clear cut case of insubordination on the part of the NPs. If you want things to change. My suggestion (from an easier said then done POV). Make your stance on insubordination VERY CLEAR. P asks NP to do something. NP refuses, P reports to his supervisor, supervisor writes up NP (or gives NP one verbal chance to do the work). In the report, it is made clear that there will be two more warnings and then the NP will be terminated. Follow up with this method. Office Max has forms that do this all very nicely and I’ve had them stand up in unemployment court (in Wisconsin) in the past for me. If you are in an At Will state and the NPs are Non-Union and considering their age, they’ll probably shape up quickly. They might resent it, but they’ll start getting the work done. > Remember, you hired the NPs to do this work at half price. When they refuse, not only are you paying double the hourly wage to have a P do the work, I assume the NP isn’t doing anything during that time. It’s money out of your pocket (or whomever the owner is). > It sucks when you have to fire someone, it sucks if they are supporting their family. But you’re running a business, not a charity. > > I can’t tell from the fuzzy picture but [this](http://www.officemax.com/catalog/sku.jsp?productId=prod3111780&history=x5v3v0z0%7CprodPage~15%5EfreeText~employee%5EparamValue~true%5Erefine~1%5Eregion~1%5Eparam~return_skus%5Ereturn_skus~Y) might be the form we use. On the front you fill out the employee info, the infraction, the warning number (first/second/third) and what the previous warning was (written/verbal) and have them sign it under a statement saying they understand that if they continue this behavior they may be terminated. Then on the back is a similar warning form. When they have another infraction, you fill out the back the same way, have them sign it. The next time they misbehave, you give them the boot and you have all the warnings (signed by them) on one piece of paper ready to show to the court commissioner if they decided to file for unemployment. Thanks, Joey, but there is a process (and forms) in place. The problem, as I outlined previously, is getting people to document the issues (for a variety of reasons). ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/25 "2011-01-06T14:06:58Z")
By the way, I don’t mean to imply that _every_ NP is poisoning the environment. Some are outstanding (and are frequently praised and occasionally rewarded). The toxic element is maybe 25% of the total. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/26 "2011-01-06T14:09:54Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > By the way, I don’t mean to imply that _every_ NP is poisoning the environment. Some are outstanding (and are frequently praised and occasionally rewarded). The toxic element is maybe 25% of the total. So why aren’t they being fired? I hear there’s lots of people who need jobs - I doubt the position will go unfilled. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/27 "2011-01-06T14:21:58Z")
There is no way to fix the problem without firings. People who don’t want to work can’t be turned into people that do. It would help to diversify the pool of professionals to work towards a long term cultural change as well. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/28 "2011-01-06T14:28:34Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Since you are not there, and I am, allow me to re-phrase your remarks in order for them to be accurate: > > Inexperienced but educated younger workers of varying levels of maturity are appropriately delegating work to some lazy-ass, unmotivated, unskilled long-term employees who go out of their way to intimidate whomever they can in order to avoid actually doing the work for which they are appropriately compensated. If that’s a fair and honest assessment of what’s going on then you fire them. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/29 "2011-01-06T14:30:52Z")
I can see how this would be a problem in a tight labor market. However, right now this is not a problem. But let’s assume you’ve already lobbied HR for a more liberal firing policy and they’ve shot you down. I guess I don’t understand why the whippersnappers are afraid to complain about the NPs. Didn’t you say the young folks cycle in and out constantly? How bad can the retaliation be if they’re not going to be there longer than a year or two? If you catch a P doing an NPs work, write up the P. When it’s their own ass on the line, then they’ll find a way to get the NP to do it or complain when they don’t. Honestly, I don’t know that you’re ever going to get the percentage of NPs who shirk work lower than 10 or 15%. That’s just the price of employing low-paid people who (somewhat understandably) aren’t going to be super-motivated. You should try to improve the career track and incentives for the NPs, but there is a certain percentage that you’ll never reach. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/30 "2011-01-06T14:32:55Z")
It’s a problem of incentives. What incentivizes the np’s? Most likely compensation, as most people in the workforce are incented by compensation. Does your smallish (100 people) firm have a bonus program? Are the np’s entitlted to participate in the bonus program? It doesn’t have to be at the same level as the P’s, but having a bonus program that np’s can participate in based upon their individual contributions, etc. can go along way to incentivize behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Leon497](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Leon497](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leon497)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/31 "2011-01-06T14:43:15Z")
Start with the basic issue of WHO IS RIGHT. The NP’s have done the job for many years you say, so sounds like new stupid manager just comes in and tries to say stuff is all wrong when it obviously has not been before, so sure they think he is a fool. Question is are they right? Check into that first thing, and as for some of the pros actually doing work, man that is wonderful, getting some productive work out of kids who think they are everyones boss is wonderful, I would try to keep them doing that and producing instead of being dead wood. Sounds to me that the NP’s are getting more productivity out of employees to me, a great thing. So find out WHY the new bosses are disliked and I bet you will find it has to do with them being stupid about operations. They are probably suggesting things already tried long ago and known not to help, or even hurt, productivity. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/32 "2011-01-06T14:44:08Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I guess I don’t understand why the whippersnappers are afraid to complain about the NPs. Because I suspect they’re afraid of being professionally tarred with the racist label. It happens. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/33 "2011-01-06T14:45:05Z")
You would only have to fire one or two insubordinates before the message was clear. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/34 "2011-01-06T14:56:46Z")
> [@Leon497](#): > > Sounds to me that the NP’s are getting more productivity out of employees to me, a great thing. So find out WHY the new bosses are disliked and I bet you will find it has to do with them being stupid about operations. They are probably suggesting things already tried long ago and known not to help, or even hurt, productivity. Does it usually make sense for paralegal work to be done by an attorney? Yes, it’s ‘more productivity,’ but the attorney’s comparative advantage isn’t in doing that type of work. It’s actually quite inefficient. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/35 "2011-01-06T15:03:24Z")
What’s the reporting system for Ps to inform you of a shitty NP? Seems like it should be beefed up so that either (i) Ps report anonymously or (ii) Ps have more assurance of the confidentiality of each report. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/36 "2011-01-06T15:07:15Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Since you are not there, and I am, allow me to re-phrase your remarks in order for them to be accurate: > > Inexperienced but educated younger workers of varying levels of maturity are appropriately delegating work to some lazy-ass, unmotivated, unskilled long-term employees who go out of their way to intimidate whomever they can in order to avoid actually doing the work for which they are appropriately compensated. Tell the professionals to get a spine, and tell the non-pros they are easily replaceable (really, they are). I think you’re going to just have to be a hardass for a few months and definitely some firings. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/37 "2011-01-06T15:23:05Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > You would only have to fire one or two insubordinates before the message was clear. Maybe you don’t have to fire them. If you can find a way to direct the work to just those NPs who are functioning well and leave the difficult ones with nothing to do you could lay them off for lack of work. My opinion of this issue changed when you mentioned that it’s really just a few of the NPs causing a problem. This makes me think it’s probably not badly behaving Ps who are creating discord, but NPs who have been in a sub role for too long and feel they deserve some deference because of their long term status -you may have a college degree, but I’ve been here for ten years so I know more than you-. That attitude is a hard nut to crack, probably your energy is better spent finding a way to move them out. Is the paper trail for a layoff different than for termination? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/38 "2011-01-06T17:49:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s because you don’t understand how those companies work. > > I gave specific examples why that makes sense. “Professionals” could be attornies, accountants, management consultants, or financial analysts. These employees are typically highly educated, typically having a JD, MBA or other masters or a specific professional degree from well respected schools. They may have additional required certifications like a bar certification, CPA, Series 7, CFA or others. They get paid more because people are hiring them for their specific expertise. > > The “Support” people do not have these qualifications. Their job is to perform routine, mundane but necessary work that frees up the professionals to focus on their professional tasks. A paralegal, for example, supports a lawyer, but they are unable to practice law. My admin assistant may be a lot older and been with the company longer, but she doesn’t have the skills or qualifcations to perform my job. > > Just because your job is necessary doesn’t mean it’s important. I understand how this works. But I don’t have the time to explain it to someone who can’t tell the difference between a diploma and an education. I can sum up my refutation of your claims simply by pointing out that because a job is necessary, it is by definition important. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Since you are not there, and I am, allow me to re-phrase your remarks in order for them to be accurate: > > Inexperienced but educated younger workers of varying levels of maturity are appropriately delegating work to some lazy-ass, unmotivated, unskilled long-term employees who go out of their way to intimidate whomever they can in order to avoid actually doing the work for which they are appropriately compensated. I expect your problem to continue so long as you maintain this attitude. You can easily determine the quality of your workers by who intimidates who. Apparently you and others think that maintaining the imagined superiority of college graduates is more important than productivity. I offered you a solution to your problem that has worked for others, and will work for you. Perhaps you could apply your superior education to comprehending it. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/39 "2011-01-06T18:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > You can easily determine the quality of your workers by who intimidates who. This may be the most bullshit-laden sentence I’ve ever read here. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576/40 "2011-01-06T18:22:01Z")
IMHO, even though Tripolar has an obvious chip on his shoulder and bug up his ass, his suggestion could definitely work in the right environment (and is consistent with msmith’s “service org within a service org” idea). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/management-types-help-me-solve-a-workplace-problem/566576.md?page=3)