# Mandalay Bay (Las Vegas) shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 2, 2017, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797 "2017-10-02T07:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/181 "2017-10-02T22:57:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Weapons jam sometimes, more often at sustained high rates of fire, and it might be faster to have a backup rifle rather than spending time trying to clear the jam. I’ve heard quite a few preppers / gun owners repeat the saying “two is one, and one is none” as a way of emphasizing the need for backups / redundancy because equipment fails sometimes. Ten seems like overkill though. Agreed…like you said, 10? I can see 2 or 3… ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/182 "2017-10-02T22:58:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > CNN just reported he had 18 guns of some sort Back at his house as well as explosives. Without them saying exactly what they are talking about it’s impossible to know what they mean by explosives. A couple of packages of tannerite for target shooting? Homemade pipe bombs? 100 pounds of C4? Firecrackers? Yeah, no way of knowing yet. ISTM that LEOs + the media tend to seek the most dramatic explanation possible. Could be that he was into reloading and had some primers, or a can of smokeless powder, and they’re calling that “explosives”, but I suppose it’s also possible that he was building propane / pipe bombs or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/183 "2017-10-02T23:03:11Z")
> [@Clarisse\_McClellan](#): > > Las Vegas sheriff reporting ammonium nitrate was found in the suspect’s car… Tannerite = “ammonium nitrate” ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/184 "2017-10-02T23:06:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I agree. I was just trying to convey two ideas: > > 1. Many cops are not solely equipped with handguns these days. Rifles are quite common, at least in vehicles. > > 2. A run-of-the-mill AR-15 ought to be capable of accurate return fire at those distances, at least in the hands of a competent marksmen. > > After all, at least according to some initial reporting, the bad guy was using AR’s to shoot down at the crowd: The maximum effective range for a military M4 is 500 meters for point targets, 600 meters for area targets and a maximum range is 3600 meters. At 500 meters a man sized target is very small and not easy to hit on a one way range using a steady platform. On a two way range it’s not a shot I would count on. It looks to me that most shots would have to be from at least the 300-500 meter mark. Add to that the fact that no one trains shooting 32 stories up. That’s certainly going to affect your aim point. Not insurmountable problems unless you care about hitting innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/185 "2017-10-02T23:08:10Z")
Slide Fire semi-confirmed. [This AP story](https://apnews.com/71c3df85c71d4d6dbdd5a21fb87608ec) says: > [@](#): > > Stephen Paddock also had two devices that are attached to the stocks of semi-automatic guns to allow fully automatic gunfire. It’s still possible that some of his other weapons were either legally-owned machine guns (unlikely, imho) or had illegal internal modifications made to convert them to full-auto. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/186 "2017-10-02T23:20:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Tannerite = “ammonium nitrate” Possibly. Ammonium Nitrate is an oxidizer not an explosive. It’s a component of ANFO and other types of homemade explosives as well as commercial explosives. It’s also one of the main components of Tannerite. Tannerite is a patented binary formula. ANFO has a RE factor of around .8 and Tannerite is around .4. TNT is 1.0. In other words ANFO is almost as powerful as TNT per pound and tannerite is about half that. So it comes down to how much and what he had. Was he making ANFO? He may have been planning something even worse. Did he have a little tannerite? Maybe he liked shooting targets that go bang in the desert. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/187 "2017-10-02T23:26:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > BTW, just a tip in the unfortunate case that you might find yourself in a similar situation some day: RUN! And don’t stop running! > > … Hey thanks! Are you a veteran of such situations, or are you merely being critical of the dead people that got caught in a crowd of people panicking? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/188 "2017-10-02T23:29:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > BTW, just a tip in the unfortunate case that you might find yourself in a similar situation some day: RUN! And don’t stop running! > > Watching the videos, a lot of the crowd would duck every time the guy would let loose with another string of shots. Unless you know which direction the gunfire is coming from and you’re ducking to get some solid cover between you and the shooter, you’re not really making yourself appreciable smaller, and by dropping to the ground every few seconds and running only while he’s reloading you’re extending the time you are remaining in the bad guy’s target zone. Just keep running until you are well away from the situation and minimize your time in the target area. At least, that’s my take. I was having this discussion with a Marine friend of mine. This is the simplified version but the worst thing you can do when caught in an ambush is stop. I’ve seen this over and over in the plethora of combat footage from the Middle East. Poorly trained fighters freeze in the kill zone and get picked off one by one. Of course civilians aren’t going to use fire and maneuver but they should have run. Those yelling at them to get down did them a great disservice without knowing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/189 "2017-10-02T23:29:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Sure, you might buy a gun in Vegas and bring it back to your room, but you’d think after you carried the 10th armload of weapons through the front door someone might start asking questions. At least, you’d have to plan for that. Er… bags, boxes, luggage… I don’t know where you got this notion that he’d be carrying bare guns anywhere in public. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Why would one guy take 10+ weapons in the room to do such a thing? Why not take 1 weapon and a shitload of loaded magazines?\* Because guns jam, stuff breaks, and if you have 10 loaded rifles ready to go you just drop and empty and pick up a full, you don’t need to reload for awhile. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/190 "2017-10-02T23:33:10Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > CBS has [fired a senior attorney](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/10/02/cbs-lawyer-fired-las-vegas-facebook-post-republican-gun-toters/724808001/)for comments she made. Well a CNN reporter said that country music fans are mostly Trump supporters. Didn’t support that conclusion with any evidence or why he thought it even relevant. Some folks brains seem to fall out when things like this happen. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/191 "2017-10-02T23:33:39Z")
Yeah, 10 rifles, will probably fit in an oversized suitcase. Even if they don’t, they certainly will in something like a hard sided carrying case for golf clubs. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/192 "2017-10-02T23:34:45Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Hey thanks! Are you a veteran of such situations, or are you merely being critical of the dead people that got caught in a crowd of people panicking? Not trying to criticize them at all. Trying to offer people here a small bit of advice that could save their life one day if they’re ever so unlucky to be caught in a situation like that. They did the best they could, even the ones yelling “Get down!” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/193 "2017-10-02T23:37:07Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Possibly. Ammonium Nitrate is an oxidizer not an explosive. It’s a component of ANFO and other types of homemade explosives as well as commercial explosives. It’s also one of the main components of Tannerite. Tannerite is a patented binary formula. ANFO has a RE factor of around .8 and Tannerite is around .4. TNT is 1.0. In other words ANFO is almost as powerful as TNT per pound and tannerite is about half that. So it comes down to how much and what he had. Was he making ANFO? He may have been planning something even worse. Did he have a little tannerite? Maybe he liked shooting targets that go bang in the desert. Agreed. I feel like you’re giving much more thorough explanations of all the things I’m posting. Perhaps I should sit back and let you handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/194 "2017-10-02T23:37:24Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Hey thanks! Are you a veteran of such situations, or are you merely being critical of the dead people that got caught in a crowd of people panicking? I’m a veteran of some bad situations and he’s right. One way to protect yourself is to plan what you are going to do in various situations. This exact situation was unthinkable but it was not unthinkable to be in a shooting or at the scene of some sort of violence. If someone hasn’t thought about it maybe they should. It was pounded into me in the Army to not stop when ambushed but fight through it. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/195 "2017-10-02T23:42:59Z")
Right, and I’m not contending that running and keep running isn’t an effective strategy. Except for the people that get trampled. This was a no win for the people, regardless of training. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/196 "2017-10-02T23:50:31Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Right, and I’m not contending that running and keep running isn’t an effective strategy. Except for the people that get trampled. This was a no win for the people, regardless of training. No, no winning here. Only the possibility to increase your odds. But that’s no guarantee of safety if you’re in the wrong place. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/197 "2017-10-02T23:53:05Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The maximum effective range for a military M4 is 500 meters for point targets, 600 meters for area targets and a maximum range is 3600 meters. At 500 meters a man sized target is very small and not easy to hit on a one way range using a steady platform. On a two way range it’s not a shot I would count on. It looks to me that most shots would have to be from at least the 300-500 meter mark. Add to that the fact that no one trains shooting 32 stories up. That’s certainly going to affect your aim point. Not insurmountable problems unless you care about hitting innocent people. Is the 500/600m still applicable to the M4? I know it was the case with the M16A2, but I assume the M4 has a shorter barrel so it’s effective range should be shorter. Not nitpicking, genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/198 "2017-10-02T23:53:44Z")
I just got back from some errands. I noticed that the window on the face of the building that was used by Paddock (not the one on the end of the building fin) is clearly visible from [Sunset & Eastern](https://www.google.com/maps/place/E+Sunset+Rd+%26+S+Eastern+Ave+%26+NV-562,+Las+Vegas,+NV+89120/@36.0715083,-115.1207933,934m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c8cf8ad8bf9627:0xc59a806e23278dcd!8m2!3d36.071504!4d-115.1186046), which is clear on the other side of the airport from the Strip. We are justifiably proud of our first responders and even more proud of all the people who simply helped out. Las Vegas totally fucking rocks! ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/199 "2017-10-03T00:11:30Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Is the 500/600m still applicable to the M4? I know it was the case with the M16A2, but I assume the M4 has a shorter barrel so it’s effective range should be shorter. > > Not nitpicking, genuinely curious. 500/600 is for the M4. The M16 is 550 for point and 800 for area due to the longer barrel. That’s for aiming on a flat trajectory. I’m not sure how much 32 floors of elevation would effect that. Of course for a police officer shooting back only the point target number is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797/200 "2017-10-03T00:24:22Z")
Regarding the guns, in one video you can clearly hear the rate of fire speeding up and slowing down. This video is not graphic, just gunfire sounds filmed from the base of the hotel, but spoilered in case it upsets anybody. [https://mobile.twitter.com/abbytheodros/status/914735456943607808/video/1](https://mobile.twitter.com/abbytheodros/status/914735456943607808/video/1) Word on the Internet is that this means he was probably using a device called a “GAT Crank” that pulls the trigger repeatedly as you turn a small hand crank. Apparently it’s legal in most states, not considered a machine gun. Gatcrank demos: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ-ntEcMb5Y) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0U367DNjLbk/maxresdefault.jpg "Ruger 10/22 Gatling-style Crank Gun") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U367DNjLbk) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jif4Wo0LDX8/maxresdefault.jpg "Turning your AR-15 into a mini Gatling Gun! (GAT CRANK) | Super SlowMo 4K") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jif4Wo0LDX8) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-shooting/797797.md?page=11)