# MANDATORY death sentences? Fuck off Singapore. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2005, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400 "2005-11-23T09:14:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/244 "2005-12-02T04:22:56Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Some of those Vietnamese names are absolute doozies aren’t they? 😛 > > Yeah, I suspect that when Van was in school, the other kids might have had a couple of problems pronouncing Truong. It should have been ok when he was little and living in Richmond (a suburb of Melbourne with a predominantly Vietnamese population) but when he moved to the outer burbs, he probably decided it was easier to adopt the name Van than re-educate the ignorant masses. Yes, that’s quite common. My ex-missus was named Kim Phuong (she was Phuong to all the Vietnamese we knew and Kim to all the Aussies). My friend Kim Hoa does likewise (she’s also dropped the gender-identifying _Thi_ from the front). ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/245 "2005-12-02T06:01:33Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > I guess I’m anti-progress, anti-rule of law, and anti-prosperity. You’re pro-stupid, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/246 "2005-12-02T06:25:46Z")
Too sick to read this thread or comment. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/247 "2005-12-02T06:32:43Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > I guess I’m anti-progress, anti-rule of law, and anti-prosperity. Perhaps. > [@](#): > > What happened to this loyal-to-his-family young man makes me feel nothing but contempt and dread for the government of Singapore. Fuck 'em. Did Singapore keep the details of their law secret? As to the man being loyal to his family, perhaps you could explain how entering a life of crime is a boon to the family. > [@](#): > > I don’t give a shit about drug abuse, drug dealing deaths, crime, all those happy bullshit statistics. Do tell. > [@](#): > > A man died because he wanted to help his brother. You really should complete the statement: A man died because he wanted to help his brother _by illegally transporting illicit drugs through a country with a very real and applied “no tolerance” law about that stuff_. Fuck Singapore. Goddam fascists. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/248 "2005-12-02T06:58:44Z")
Drat. Left off something and messed up the coding, to boot (neat pun, huh?)! > [@](#): > > Goddam fascists. You wouldn’t happen to have any proof that there’s anything at all resembling fascism in Singapore, I mean other than that you just don’t like them arresting someone, giving him a fair trial, and applying their law to the sentencing? ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/249 "2005-12-02T11:32:29Z")
Yes, **Monty** , the laws regarding trafficking in hard drugs in Singapore are well known, and they are constitutional under the sovereignty of that particular nation state. This doesn’t make them _right_ though. After all, you might have argued the same thing about southern slavery. Unjust laws need to be opposed vigorously, regardless of the “when in Rome” principle. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/250 "2005-12-02T12:26:32Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Yes, **Monty** , the laws regarding trafficking in hard drugs in Singapore are well known, and they are constitutional under the sovereignty of that particular nation state. This doesn’t make them _right_ though. After all, you might have argued the same thing about southern slavery. Unjust laws need to be opposed vigorously, regardless of the “when in Rome” principle. Except slavery wasn’t something that the participants (the slaves, that is) had much choice about; smuggling drugs into Singapore _is_ something you have a choice about. There are probably better examples you could use for comparison. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/251 "2005-12-02T12:45:16Z")
Not at all. For some aspects of this debate, your point is valid. In fact, I’ve used the same agrument myself - drug _users_ choose to stick that needle into their arm a first time. Here though, I’m talking about unjust laws. Unjust laws are unjust laws are unjust laws. Slavery and mandatory death for drug trafficking may be different in many ways, but not in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/252 "2005-12-02T13:53:37Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Not at all. For some aspects of this debate, your point is valid. In fact, I’ve used the same agrument myself - drug _users_ choose to stick that needle into their arm a first time. Here though, I’m talking about unjust laws. Unjust laws are unjust laws are unjust laws. Slavery and mandatory death for drug trafficking may be different in many ways, but not in this one. Drug mules didn’t _chose_ to smuggle? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/253 "2005-12-02T14:47:20Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > Not at all. For some aspects of this debate, your point is valid. In fact, I’ve used the same agrument myself - drug _users_ choose to stick that needle into their arm a first time. But this isn’t _about_ drug users, it’s about drug traffickers. > [@](#): > > Here though, I’m talking about unjust laws. Unjust laws are unjust laws are unjust laws. Slavery and mandatory death for drug trafficking may be different in many ways, but not in this one. I disagree; laws permitting slavery are unjust at least partly because one can fall foul of them through no fault of one’s own; by simple accident of birth, for example - if it’s something you deliberately walk into with your eyes wide open, it’s _employment_, not slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/254 "2005-12-02T16:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But this isn’t about drug users, it’s about drug traffickers. Drug traffickers don’t exist in a vaccuum. Drug users are the ones who want the drugs, so someone supplies that demand. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/255 "2005-12-02T16:18:23Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > I guess I’m anti-progress, anti-rule of law, and anti-prosperity. > What happened to this loyal-to-his-family young man makes me feel nothing but contempt and dread for the government of Singapore. Fuck 'em. > > I don’t give a shit about drug abuse, drug dealing deaths, crime, all those happy bullshit statistics. > > A man died because he wanted to help his brother. Well, that just about says it all, doesn’t it? Suppose the man had decided to help his brother by killing the folks his brother owed money to? How does that help his brother in the slightest, and how does that show loyalty to his family? Instead, he chose to traffic in drugs, in a country where he KNEW the penalty for doing so is death? How does that help his brother in the slightest, and how does that show loyalty to his family? And how the hell can you sit there pissing and moaning about how horrible it is all is? How can you possibly defend his actions? Oh, wait - you’re anti-progress, anti-rule of law, and anti-prosperity. You’re also a :wally . ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/256 "2005-12-02T16:24:51Z")
> [@Jurhael](#): > > Drug traffickers don’t exist in a vaccuum. Drug users are the ones who want the drugs, so someone supplies that demand. Chickens and eggs, but nobody, not even the drug users, made this man embark upon a course of action that inevitably lead to his destruction. He chose it, knowing the risks; he lost the bet. Unfortunately the forfeit was a nasty one; perhaps (probably) nastier than is truly warranted by the severity of the offence, but falling foul of the law, then complaining about it is not the way to effect change. It simply isn’t reasonable to expect your government to haul you out of a hole you deliberately and knowingly dug for yourself on foreign soil. ---
**Author:** ![Fourth\_Martini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@Fourth\_Martini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fourth_Martini)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/257 "2005-12-02T16:44:05Z")
Jesus, this thread is all over the place. So let’s get to this argument about drug sale/use being bad because it’s illegal. I read something like “Booze is legal so bartenders and barflies are okay, everyone else can sod off.” I paraphrase, of course. So onto the argument of just and unjust laws, etc, the example of slavery. What about the runaway slave then? He breaks a law because the laws in place are unjust. My, how his morals are out of place! Or, say, Rosa Parks who sits in the front of the bus because segregation laws are a steaming pile of shite. Or someone who hides a Jew in his home during the Holocaust because fuck Hitler and his Third Reich bullshit? Or a bootlegger who sells whiskey underground because prohibition is a load? Or _gasp_ someone who does whatever drugs he wants because it’s nobody’s fucking business to tell him HOW he can get high. As though it’s acceptable for him to get high off ethanol, but be DAMNED if he has a little THC. I don’t even do any drugs besides alchohol. The reason I have the fourth martini at happy hour now is the same reason I used to smoke a lot of weed in college. I like the way it feels. I don’t rob people, drive under the influence, commit violent crimes or whatever ridiculous stereotypes you people may have. I indulge, float, then move on with life. I do not understand this arbitrary line drawn between morality and immorality. Is illegal drug use someone unethical, does it make the person a “scumbag” simply because the drug is illegal? Then were bootleggers and the boozers who patronized them Satan on Earth at the time? Our dear friends opiates were once legal here in the United States, and now they’re not. So a heroin user, by that logic, was once acceptible and now he’s not because of new and silly drug laws? Shall I just move to Amsterdam? I also laughed at someone referring to “suburban” drug use as opposed to drugs on the block, or whatever the exact wording was. Haha, oh puh-lease. People in the suburbs and people in the inner city use drugs for the same exact reason. They like it. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. My neighborhood was quite notorious, I’m sure you’ve all heard of it. Now, I live in a pristine lily white suburb where people are still on drugs. The same exact ones. There is no difference, you’ve been watching way too many movies and local news if you think there is one at all. Oh, are you judging by crime rates? Oh my, that’s a discussion I won’t get into right now since it seems I’ve been typing long enough. If you want me to, I will though. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/258 "2005-12-02T20:02:37Z")
Mr. Nguyen admitted to using the heroin also. That made him a drug user. He admitted to transporting the drugs. That made him part of the illegal trafficing of drugs; IOW, dealing. I’m still waiting on an explanation of how this makes Singapore a fascist state. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/259 "2005-12-02T20:16:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Mr. Nguyen admitted to using the heroin also. That made him a drug user. He admitted to transporting the drugs. That made him part of the illegal trafficing of drugs; IOW, dealing. > > I’m still waiting on an explanation of how this makes Singapore a fascist state. Because Hitler killed Jews in Nazi Germany, apparantly. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/260 "2005-12-03T00:59:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Mr. Nguyen admitted to using the heroin also. That made him a drug user. [You left out the part where he was _forced_ to use heroin](http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/when-they-were-two-little-boys/2005/12/01/1133422052414.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2). > [@](#): > > He said that during his stay in Cambodia he was introduced to a Vietnamese man who forced him to prove his bona fides by smoking heroin. “F— your mother, smoke or die,” he claimed the man told him. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/261 "2005-12-03T02:04:01Z")
Sorry I haven’t posted to all the replies. Just got back on. I’ve been following this story and thread. I just find it horrifying. I am also not at all anti (list of stuff I put in my previous post). I was being bitterly sarcastic while venting. Yes, I suppose I’m a putz and all that tiresome shit. Thank you so much. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/262 "2005-12-03T04:12:57Z")
No replies yet. Ah, nobody who slagged me appears to be online. Hi ho. **Monty** , with all due respect, fascism isn’t Nazi Germany (though **SilentGoldfish** seems to think it is), it is a governmental attitude that places “law and order” above human rights, instead of some fucked up racial superiority fantasy like the Nazis suffered. Sort of like Italy did under Mussolini. Kind of reactionary and dictatorial, you know? There is a rather significant difference between the Nazis and fascism. Singapore is a fascist state. Its government is authoritarian and dictatorial. No matter that it is prosperous. So are we. We are a republic. So is most of Europe, and it’s a republic. So is Australia, Britain, and Canada; all republics. I happen to be born, raised, and educated in a republic. I find fascism repugnant. So do I find the death penalty. Especially when it is mandatory. Especially when it is used on someone who merely _wanted_ to help his brother. Please pay attention to that. There is no proof that he wanted to smuggle drugs (aside from as a device to help his stupid brother), there is no proof that he wanted to corrupt Singaporean or Australian citizens. He wanted to help and protect his brother. I personally brutalized a policeman’s son to help and protect my brother. The statute of limitations has long run out, by the way. It was a huge risk for a stupid sibling. I took it. I loved, and love, my brother. He’s gotten smarter, by the way. Maybe I haven’t 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/263 "2005-12-03T04:39:05Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > Singapore is a fascist state. Its government is authoritarian and dictatorial. No matter that it is prosperous. So are we. We are a republic. So is most of Europe, and it’s a republic. So is Australia, Britain, and Canada; all republics. > > I happen to be born, raised, and educated in a republic. I find fascism repugnant. I am assuming that you are quite young so let me point some things out. Don’t you realize that people and cultures are different than you? You should never be afraid of people that are of different colors, speak a different language, or have customs that differ from your own. Sometimes those differences may be greater than listening to a different music station or smoking reefer more or less often than you are used to. Embracing different cultures really means that you must accept it when others have a long-term successful model than is different than you are accustomed to. What if most of them like their culture and all are free to move elsewhere? I don’t want to give a lecture on diversity anti-bigotry so lets move on. > [@Denis](#): > > So do I find the death penalty. Especially when it is mandatory. Especially when it is used on someone who merely _wanted_ to help his brother. Please pay attention to that. I am paying attention to that. I am just counting the love on my fingers trying to see what I could do in your cool little world. > [@Denis](#): > > There is no proof that he wanted to smuggle drugs (aside from as a device to help his stupid brother), there is no proof that he wanted to corrupt Singaporean or Australian citizens. We will just let this stand on its own. It sums up the situation very nicely. You are quite the work in progress aren’t you. It makes sense when you are writing doesn’t it. That may be an issue later on. > [@Denis](#): > > I personally brutalized a policeman’s son to help and protect my brother. The statute of limitations has long run out, by the way. It was a huge risk for a stupid sibling. I took it. I loved, and love, my brother. This is not a felony confession forum. We all love our brothers as well as our mothers, fathers, grandmothers, grandfathers, wives, husbands, kids, and all the rest. That is what makes life really special. However, that doesn’t mean that you can just mutter out “I love my (insert relative her)” whenever you get yourself in trouble. It doesn’t make much sense and its just plain not effective because everyone gets the fuzzies for their family members. It is considered the norm yet most people don’t do random illegal stuff because they were overcome with that type of emotion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400.md?page=14)