# MANDATORY death sentences? Fuck off Singapore. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2005, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400 "2005-11-23T09:14:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/61 "2005-11-23T21:28:43Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Fuck you for rejoicing in the death of another person. You disgust me. Where did you ever get the idea I was rejoicing over the death of another person? Drug dealers are not human. They are scum, and have less value to humanity than crotch rot fungus. ---
**Author:** ![Grelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grelby)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/62 "2005-11-23T21:48:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Where did you ever get the idea I was rejoicing over the death of another person? Drug dealers are not human. They are scum, and have less value to humanity than crotch rot fungus. Fuck you. This kind of attitude - reducing others to being less than people - is the attitude that leads to slavery, terrorism, war, race hate and a host of other evils. I’m not saying that drug dealers are good. Drug dealing is bad. That doesn’t mean that they are less than human. Jesus, are you even following along? The kid is not a drug dealer, he is a transporter. They are NOT the same thing. Look, buddy. HUMANS are capable of some pretty terrible things. HUMANS kill and rape others. HUMANS decapitate their helpless captives and videotape it to send a “message” to a horrified world. HUMANS wage wars for noble causes and kill thousands of innocent bystanders in the process. These are all horrible things, but they are all done by people. Many people are able to do these things because they’ve convinced themselves that their victims are less than human, and have no value. It’s a despicable attitude whether possessed by terrorist guilty of hundreds of murders or an American citizen who has never personally harmed another person in his or her life. So fuck you. This kid did something really fucking stupid. It’s his own goddamned fault, and he put himself in that situation. What he was doing, in addition to being stupid, was wrong. But then, I do the wrong thing too, sometimes. This kid does not deserve to die. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/63 "2005-11-23T21:49:56Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Atticus, I agree with what you propose, up to coersion through sanctions. I think that no country should interfere with another country’s internal affairs. Think about Iraq - the problem is that you’re trying to force something on someone else, based on your economic or military power. It never works, because the people LIKE it that way. I’m against the war in Iraq - that particular dog won’t hunt, mate. As to whether sanctions etc are ever acceptable, consider the case of South Africa I posited earlier. Many countries imposed diplomatic / trade sanctions on SA because of their internal policy of apartheid, and they were right to do so, don’t you think? It’s a matter of degree. > [@](#): > > If you’re talking about simply making an exception for your own countrymen, then you’re being hypocritical. Either you’re saying “DP is barbaric but I don’t care, as long as my guy is okay” or “We are better than you, so it shouldn’t apply to us”. I am strongly opposed to the death penalty, no matter whose countryman / woman is killed. I have campaigned against its application to citizens of various countries and have done some legal work against it. I can’t really talk any more about that though. Why am I kicking up a stink about this particular case? Well, I have more chance of making a change, as I have a kind of connection to the case - that is, as an Australian citizen I can pressure my government to fight harder. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/64 "2005-11-23T21:52:07Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Where did you ever get the idea I was rejoicing over the death of another person? Drug dealers are not human. They are scum, and have less value to humanity than crotch rot fungus. You’re an idiot and beneath my contempt. So this is the last time I’ll respond to you. ---
**Author:** ![Grelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grelby)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/65 "2005-11-23T21:54:32Z")
Actually, let me make this abundantly clear: “fuck you” does not even begin to describe my feelings about your attitude, **Clothahump**. To say “I am not rejoicing in the death of another human being,” is simply so unmitigatedly **evil** and despicable that I am a loss for words strong enough to condemn you for it. Suffice it for me to say that you are a horrifyingly frightening and sick person, and that I am grateful beyond words that the majority of people do not seem to share your disgusting opinions. Yes, I am that disturbed. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/66 "2005-11-23T22:09:21Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > I’m against the war in Iraq - that particular dog won’t hunt, mate. As to whether sanctions etc are ever acceptable, consider the case of South Africa I posited earlier. Many countries imposed diplomatic / trade sanctions on SA because of their internal policy of apartheid, and they were right to do so, don’t you think? It’s a matter of degree. So, you’re against intervention in Iraq, but not in SA. Why? What’s the difference? I submit that the difference was that in SA, Blacks were disenfrenchised. They had no choice. They hated the state of affairs, but didn’t have any way to change it. In Iraq, however, people were generally okay with Saddam, or at least didn’t hate him enough to raise a stink, even if they didn’t like him very much. Regardless of the outcome, it’s clear that what they DON’T want is western style democracy. I’m not disagreeing with you here - I think what happened in Iraq is bad as well, because it’s forcing upon a people something that they don’t like. It won’t work that way. And that’s what you want to do, in “DP is bad and barbaric and should be abolished”. I’m sorry to say, the people of Singapore (and Texas. Can’t leave out Texas. ;)) don’t think so. Forcing your views on them is about as likely to work as forcing democracy on Iraqis. This is EXACTLY the kind of imperialism I’m talking about - “I know that the DP is inhumane and if I beat you about the head enough you’ll get it too, you barbarian”. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/67 "2005-11-23T22:24:48Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > So, you’re against intervention in Iraq, but not in SA. Why? What’s the difference? You completely skewered my argument with that skillful straw man there. You’re totally right, an all-out invasion and occupation on false pretences is just the same as diplomatic / trade sanctions. I surrender! Allow me, master, to bow before your mighty argumentative skill! > [@](#): > > In Iraq, however, people were generally okay with Saddam, or at least didn’t hate him enough to raise a stink, even if they didn’t like him very much. Yeah, Saddam and the Iraqis were good buddies. The Iraqis never attempted uprisings which were brutally put down, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands. The Kurds? Would never raise a stink. The Marsh Arabs? Totally cool with being evicted from their homelands, didn’t bother to raise a stink about it. What planet are you on? > [@](#): > > Regardless of the outcome, it’s clear that what they DON’T want is western style democracy. I’m not disagreeing with you here - I think what happened in Iraq is bad as well, because it’s forcing upon a people something that they don’t like. It won’t work that way. Maybe, just maybe, their problems with the US doesn’t stem from an antipathy towards democracy, they just don’t like being bombed by their ‘liberators’ and having glowsticks shoved where the sun don’t shine. Nah, that couldn’t be it. > [@](#): > > This is EXACTLY the kind of imperialism I’m talking about - “I know that the DP is inhumane and if I beat you about the head enough you’ll get it too, you barbarian”. How is it imperialism, if we’re talking about two advanced Westernised nations? Singapore and Australia are approximate equals here. Similarly, how exactly is Australia imperialistically oppressing the US, by any measure the most powerful nation in the world? Where’s the difference between this example, and the South African example? There is injustice, I say we campaign against it in legal and democratic ways. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/68 "2005-11-24T00:22:12Z")
I have to admit that my first thought to go through my head was “Fuck him. He got what he deserved.” I happen to think that drug dealers (including couriers) join child molestors and paid assassins at the bottom of the food chain. Then I read some of the responses and thought about it some more, and I realized that the death penalty _is_ going too far. I’m very suspicious of countries that trumpet law and order above all other values, and yeah, Singapore is a police state, albeit one of the milder ones. It bans books critical of the culture and breaks up festivals not in accordance with the “moral values of most Singaporeans” as a police member said once about banning a gay Christmas party. While I don’t believe that the American constitution should be slapped on every nation in the world, I do believe that certain things are just wrong. My belief in the sacredness of free speech leads me to oppose the hate crime laws in Canada, and my belief that the death penalty should be applied sparingly (if at all) leads me to oppose this. Throw this little shit into prison for 20 years and watch me not care. But death? No. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/69 "2005-11-24T00:47:52Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > I happen to think that drug dealers (including couriers) join child molestors and paid assassins at the bottom of the food chain. I’m sorry. Remind me again exactly which people drug dealers are hurting who don’t want to be hurt? Were office workers at Bayer as low as child molesters when they were selling heroin? > [@Clothahump](#): > > Where did you ever get the idea I was rejoicing over the death of another person? Drug dealers are not human. They are scum, and have less value to humanity than crotch rot fungus. Your quote plainly shows that there are very few drug dealers lower than yourself, you narrow-minded, ignorant, fuckwit. Indeed, the vast majority of dealers have never hurt a fly. If they did, the murder rate would be a hundred times what it is now. If you’re going to keep painting this thread with shit, it might we worth your while to use a slightly smaller brush. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/70 "2005-11-24T01:53:58Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Haven’t I already given examples? > > - A personal appeal, PM to PM. Howard, our PM, is in the area and could do this face to face. > - A prisoner exchange program. > - An appeal to the ICJ. > - As a last resort, diplomatic / trade influences or sanctions. > > Let’s face it, there are many things a government can do, the only question is the degree of motivation. Howard has spoken to Lee face to face several times recently. Prisoner exchange programmes require the prisoner to serve the same sentence in their home country i.e the death penalty. An appeal to th ICJ requires Indonesia to grant that the court has jurisdiction. In the US last year an ICJ ruling for a stay of execution was ignored by the state court and the prisoner immediately executed. Howard quite rightly believes that the use of economic sanctions is inappropriate - it serves only to force government interference in the judiciary. I agree that it is terrible that this guy is being executed. His one and only dumb act was an attemp to pay off his brother’s gambling debts - he himself was getting nothing for the one-off run.Personally I have no problems with the death sentence for the pathalogically violent but I would rather see the drug trade hamstrung in the Dutch manner. I think if the Indonesians were smart they would come up with a law like this: Smuggling = DEATH or $100 contribution to rehab services for each dose being carried and deportation. Nguyen would be up for $2,600,000 in fines. If enough Aussies felt sorry for him they could subscribe and free him. Your average career smuggler wouldn’t be able to summon uo enough suport. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/71 "2005-11-24T02:16:31Z")
> [@neutron star](#): > > I’m sorry. Remind me again exactly which people drug dealers are hurting who don’t want to be hurt? Were office workers at Bayer as low as child molesters when they were selling heroin? Quite a few dealers sell to kids. Are you telling me that a 12 or 13 year old is mature enough to make this decision? Drug dealers get into little tiffs over who gets to deal drugs where. More than a few elderly ladies, third graders, and schoolteachers catch stray bullets. Is a drug dealer doing business near your house? Get ready for your property value to drop to the level of that nasty mold you have in your basement sink, especially when the addicts start breaking into nearby residences to finance their habit. Or did you mean the high-minded dealers who stick to the Dealers’ Code Of Conduct? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/72 "2005-11-24T02:19:24Z")
Singapore’s got their own think going on. We are supposed to be tolerant of other cultures right (I mean that seriously)? Last I heard, their laws were working out pretty well for them. This guy knew the risks going in and he decided to play anyway. He had the choice of not playing games with Singaporean law but he did and got caught. No big deal. People get killed by consciencely taking risks everyday. As long as the punishment wasn’t altered after the fact, then I see no problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/73 "2005-11-24T02:29:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Singapore’s got their own think going on. We are supposed to be tolerant of other cultures right (I mean that seriously)? Last I heard, their laws were working out pretty well for them. This guy knew the risks going in and he decided to play anyway. He had the choice of not playing games with Singaporean law but he did and got caught. No big deal. People get killed by consciencely taking risks everyday. As long as the punishment wasn’t altered after the fact, then I see no problem with it. Like I said, this was my gut reaction. But think about it, **Shag**. Protesting is illegal in North Korea. That’ll get you put into a “management camp” faster than you can say “Dear Leader.” It’s legal, perfectly in accord with the North Korean constitution (Yes, they actually have one.). Does that make it right? Drug dealing is a good deal worse than dissent, but the basic question stands. Is this punishment just? It goes deeper than what’s legal by our constitution. We’re talking basic human rights. I think the rule on respecting other cultures is that you use respect for human rights as the benchmark. I can use this philosophy to respect Islam and condemn Islamic countries for abuses simultaneously without being hypocritical. Of course, that brings up the whole question of what these rights are. Of course there are gray areas, but I think drug dealing falls well short of that. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/74 "2005-11-24T02:43:37Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > A lot of of you are pissing and moaning for this poor, poor drug dealer, and yet…Singapore has a vastly lower crime rate WRT drugs and a vastly lower rate of drug abuse than the U.S., doesn’t it? Seems to me that while their drug laws may be harsh and one could argue inhumane…they work. This would be a good argument if these were the only two countries in the whole world. > [@Clothahump](#): > > Where did you ever get the idea I was rejoicing over the death of another person? Drug dealers are not human. They are scum, and have less value to humanity than crotch rot fungus. Gee, how impressively uncompromising! You are a blackhearted redneck with nothing sensible to contribute to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/75 "2005-11-24T02:49:31Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Drug dealing is a good deal worse than dissent, but the basic question stands. Is this punishment just? It goes deeper than what’s legal by our constitution. We’re talking basic human rights. Basic human rights aren’t something that are written in stone. It can be culturally dependent and subject to opinions. You can probably define some human rights that should be universal but I don’t think this falls under that category. For one, he was engaging in an illegal act that threatened the lives of others. Human rights never extend to that point. Singapore uses threat of death to protect their country from a very serious problem that can kill others, strain law enforcement, hurt the economy, and tear families apart. This is heroin, not marijuana he was bringing in. Singapore also has a different level of drug problem than we do here in the U.S. so our standards don’t really apply. This guy’s actions represented a very serious threat to the citizens of Singapore and the country as a whole. You can look at this as a case as something like treason. Singapore wants to run a law enforcement and deterrent experiment that fits in with their culture and goals as well as protects its citizens from a threat up to and including death themselves. I see no problem with that. The guy chose to play the game and lost. The game was completely consensual from the start just like two high school kids playing chicken. Sure, it is a shame when someone dies but you can’t really call anyone a victim. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/76 "2005-11-24T02:57:58Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Basic human rights aren’t something that are written in stone. It can be culturally dependent and subject to opinions. You can probably define some human rights that should be universal but I don’t think this falls under that category. For one, he was engaging in an illegal act that threatened the lives of others. Human rights never extend to that point. > > Singapore uses threat of death to protect their country from a very serious problem that can kill others, strain law enforcement, hurt the economy, and tear families apart. This is heroin, not marijuana he was bringing in. Singapore also has a different level of drug problem than we do here in the U.S. so our standards don’t really apply. This guy’s actions represented a very serious threat to the citizens of Singapore and the country as a whole. You can look at this as a case as something like treason. > > Singapore wants to run a law enforcement and deterrent experiment that fits in with their culture and goals as well as protects its citizens from a threat up to and including death themselves. I see no problem with that. The guy chose to play the game and lost. The game was completely consensual from the start just like two high school kids playing chicken. Sure, it is a shame when someone dies but you can’t really call anyone a victim. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, partly because the difference is one of basic philosophy and partly because I don’t want to get into the positions of defending drug dealing shitbirds and their flunkeys. I certainly won’t shed a tear when this shitbird swings, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s right. I will say that it sure doesn’t seem that deterrence is working and I also bet that in this kind of society, the powers that be will suddenly find it in their hearts to be merciful if the dealer in question turns out to be a cabinet minister’s son. ---
**Author:** ![Foaming\_Cleanser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Foaming\_Cleanser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foaming_Cleanser)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/77 "2005-11-24T03:40:07Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > You can look at this as a case as something like treason. Because it’s a drug carrier invading the state’s drug turf. This is the [lead paragraph](http://www.singapore-window.org/804caq9.htm) from the same story linked above by TheLoadedDog, then me: > [@](#): > > “SINGAPORE’S economic linkage with Burma is one of the most vital factors for the survival of Burma’s military regime,” says Professor Mya Maung, a Burmese economist based in Boston. This link, he continues, is also central to “the expansion of the heroin trade.” Singapore has acieved the distinction of being the Burmese junta’s number one business partner - both largest trading partner and largest foreign investor. More than half these investments, totaling upwards of $1.3 billion, are in partnership with Burma’s infamous heroin kingpin Lo Hsing Han who now controls a substantial portion of the world’s opium trade. The close political, economic and military relationship between the two countries facilitates the weaving of millions of narco-dollars into the legitimate world economy. [Nov. 9, 2005](http://www.singapore-window.org/sw05/051109sm.htm): > [@](#): > > SINGAPORE’S tough stand on drug traffickers is at odds with its own economic relationship with a Burmese drug lord, according to Singapore’s leading opposition figure, Dr Chee Soon Juan. > > “If the Government really wanted to eradicate or even minimise the problem, it would not be in bed with drug barons holed up and operating freely in Burma,” he told a forum in Singapore. > > The forum was held to highlight the plight of Nguyen Tuong Van, the Melbourne man convicted of trafficking heroin who exhausted all his legal options of appeal when in Singapore’s President, Sellapan Ramanathan Nathan, rejected his appeal for clemency. [October 1997](http://www.singapore-window.org/1020naus.htm): > [@](#): > > The Nation [magazine] has learned that the highest levels of the Singaporean government, using the New York-based Morgan Guaranty Trust Company, a subsidiary of J.P. Morgan, as a custodial operative, are engaging in joint business ventures with one of the world’s most notorious drug lords and with the drug-backed military dictatorship of Burma (Myanmar). This has been confirmed by corporate, government and legal documents from four countries and was contended by high-ranking US narcotics and government officials in private interviews. > \ > This dual-track policy is condoned and encouraged at top levels of the Singaporean regime, including by Lee Kuan Yew, the country’s undisputed strongman. Lee, whose antidrug policies are among the strictest in the world, is participating in the country’s deepening business relationships with renowned heroin trafficker Lo Hsing Han of Burma and his son and business partner, Steven Law. Their operations in Burma, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and the United States are now the focus of an ongoing U.S. government narcotics and money-laundering investigation, The Nation has learned. [And](http://www.singapore-window.org/11242nat.htm): > [@](#): > > The US government has reported that more than half Singapore’s $1 billion-plus investment in Burma is tied to Lo Hsing Han and his family. [Singapore’s drug turf](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Global_Secrets_Lies/BurmaSingapore_Drugs.html): > [@](#): > > Singapore’s economic linkage with Burma is one of the most vital factors for the survival of Burma’s military regime," says Professor Mya Maung, a Burmese economist based in Boston. This link, he continues, is also central to “the expansion of the heroin trade.”) Singapore has achieved the distinction of being the Burmese junta’s number one business partner -both largest trading partner and largest foreign investor. More than half these investments, totaling upwards of $1.3 billion, are in partnership with Burma’s infamous heroin kingpin Lo Hsing Han, who now controls a substantial portion of the world’s opium trade. The close political, economic, and military relationship between the two countries facilitates the weaving of millions of narco-dollars into the legitimate world economy > [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > I am VERY skeptical about that article. While I am not in a position to take it apart totally, at the very least I can answer the money laundering allegation. > > [From the IMF: warning PDF](http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:NQs34B-e44YJ:www.imf.org/external/np/aml/eng/2003/090503.pdf+money+laundering+singapore&hl=en&client=firefox-a) How does this disprove the money-laundering allegation? When Singapore is mentioned, it is only as a member of an anti-money-laundering group of countries. There is nothing there proving Singapore is anything but a member of a phony committee. > [@](#): > > As well as Singapore being one of the founders of [APG](http://www.apgml.org/Jurisdictions/) (incidentally, Australia is one as well) So what? > [@](#): > > The fact remains that Burma is still a member of Asean, and that engagement is part of getting Burma out of the drugs rut. As it is, Burma was almost expelled from Asean for not releasing Ang San Su Ki. Is that what you would call “bedfellows”? Yes, it is. _Almost_ being expelled means it wasn’t expelled. And why would it be? The Asean collective is hardly a bulwark of democracy and free speech. > [@](#): > > The fact remains that Burma is still a member of Asean, and that engagement is part of getting Burma out of the drugs rut. And onto an eight-lane paved highway. > [@](#): > > Perhaps we should re-consider the relationship South Korea has with North Korea - they’re trading, therefore the South is keeping Kim in power and killing millions of North Koreans by proxy. Ridiculous. South Korea isn’t using North Korea as a front and broker for billions worth of drugs and money-laundering. > [@](#): > > And I take great offence in calling Singapore a police state. As anyone who has visited Singapore can tell you, it is no police state. Many dopers have even lived there, and while I must admit that sometimes the PAP does use some underhand means to stay in power, brutality is not part of it. There’s [this](http://www.thinkcentre.org/article.cfm?ArticleID=1305) : > [@](#): > > Singapore is a modern police state where Internet posters are investigated, interrogated, warned, prosecuted and punished and even committed to a mental institute for psychiatric tests. A system of surveillance, legislation, control and prosecution has kept the political potential of the Internet in check. And [this](http://members.internettrash.com/rolfbmiller/engl-zuech.html) : > [@](#): > > Many newspaper carried photos taken in Singapore’s Changi prison in 1994, showing a prison officer helpfully demonstrating, with the aid of a human dummy strapped over a trestle, how Fay would be caned on the bare buttocks with a four-foot long, halfinch thick rattan. The cane is applied with the entire force of a martial arts expert’s body, and causes intolerable pain, bleeding and lifelong scarring. [Human Rights Watch](http://www.hrw.org/prisons/asia.html): > [@](#): > > Singapore, followed by Taiwan, has the highest known incarceration rate in Asia. (No information is available regarding the number of prisoners in North Korea, however.) From [Reporters Without Borders](http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6656): > [@](#): > > Repressive laws such as the internal security act in Malaysia or a policy of systematic censorship enabled the regimes led by Mahathir Mohamad and Goh Chok Tong to maintain “Asian values” and dispel any notion of one party replacing another in power by means of elections. Singapore is a police state rolling in drug money, and the thugs running the place will kill anyone it sees as moving in on its turf. Executions are its blinking-neon Trespassers Will Be Shot signs. ---
**Author:** ![Foaming\_Cleanser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Foaming\_Cleanser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foaming_Cleanser)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/78 "2005-11-24T03:50:52Z")
Sorry. The quote in my post above, under the “lead paragraph” link, is repeated under the link “Singapore’s drug turf.” ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/79 "2005-11-24T04:03:23Z")
While the german authoritarian in me is saying, “He knew the risks.” the mother in me is weeping right along with this kid’s mother. ☹ If we simply must make a distinction between drug runner and drug dealer, then I’d say that the bulk of my anger is not directed towards Singapore as much as those heartless bastards who recruit kids into the business, knowing that if they get caught, they’ll hang. Poor mom. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400/80 "2005-11-24T06:19:38Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Well, right off the top of my head, because smuggling drugs is a **choice** that an individual makes, and being Jewish (or black, or gay, etc…) is not? Think the two are just a tiny bit different? Well, true. But, you would also be jailed or punished for helping the Jews, or speaking out against the Nazi party. Now, I’m not necessarily comparing Singapore to Nazi Germany. But the argument that “well, they’re a sovereign nation” is bullshit. Hey, someone tell that to Bush, because hey, Iraq was a sovereign nation, so Saddam Hussein was perfectly in his rights to be a cruel tyrant. But since I’m against the whole Iraq debacle, here’s a better analogy. Afghanistan was a sovereign nation. So, therefore, they had every right to say “Go piss up a rope!” when we called them on harboring Bin Laden and Al Qaeda members. So, the way I look at it, the guy was an idiot, but I’m anti-death penalty, and Singapore is all out of proportion when it comes to crime and punishment. (Remember that kid getting caned for spray-painting cars? Yeah he was a brat, but caning? Jesus!). Put the guy in jail for a long time, sure. But death? Surely if he’s that stupid, he’ll eventually eliminate himself from the gene pool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-death-sentences-fuck-off-singapore/332400.md?page=5)