Where did you ever get the idea I was rejoicing over the death of another person? Drug dealers are not human. They are scum, and have less value to humanity than crotch rot fungus.
Fuck you. This kind of attitude - reducing others to being less than people - is the attitude that leads to slavery, terrorism, war, race hate and a host of other evils. I’m not saying that drug dealers are good. Drug dealing is bad. That doesn’t mean that they are less than human. Jesus, are you even following along? The kid is not a drug dealer, he is a transporter. They are NOT the same thing.
Look, buddy. HUMANS are capable of some pretty terrible things. HUMANS kill and rape others. HUMANS decapitate their helpless captives and videotape it to send a “message” to a horrified world. HUMANS wage wars for noble causes and kill thousands of innocent bystanders in the process. These are all horrible things, but they are all done by people. Many people are able to do these things because they’ve convinced themselves that their victims are less than human, and have no value. It’s a despicable attitude whether possessed by terrorist guilty of hundreds of murders or an American citizen who has never personally harmed another person in his or her life. So fuck you.
This kid did something really fucking stupid. It’s his own goddamned fault, and he put himself in that situation. What he was doing, in addition to being stupid, was wrong. But then, I do the wrong thing too, sometimes.
This kid does not deserve to die.
I’m against the war in Iraq - that particular dog won’t hunt, mate. As to whether sanctions etc are ever acceptable, consider the case of South Africa I posited earlier. Many countries imposed diplomatic / trade sanctions on SA because of their internal policy of apartheid, and they were right to do so, don’t you think? It’s a matter of degree.
I am strongly opposed to the death penalty, no matter whose countryman / woman is killed. I have campaigned against its application to citizens of various countries and have done some legal work against it. I can’t really talk any more about that though.
Why am I kicking up a stink about this particular case? Well, I have more chance of making a change, as I have a kind of connection to the case - that is, as an Australian citizen I can pressure my government to fight harder.
You’re an idiot and beneath my contempt. So this is the last time I’ll respond to you.
Actually, let me make this abundantly clear: “fuck you” does not even begin to describe my feelings about your attitude, Clothahump. To say “I am not rejoicing in the death of another human being,” is simply so unmitigatedly evil and despicable that I am a loss for words strong enough to condemn you for it. Suffice it for me to say that you are a horrifyingly frightening and sick person, and that I am grateful beyond words that the majority of people do not seem to share your disgusting opinions.
Yes, I am that disturbed.
So, you’re against intervention in Iraq, but not in SA. Why? What’s the difference?
I submit that the difference was that in SA, Blacks were disenfrenchised. They had no choice. They hated the state of affairs, but didn’t have any way to change it. In Iraq, however, people were generally okay with Saddam, or at least didn’t hate him enough to raise a stink, even if they didn’t like him very much. Regardless of the outcome, it’s clear that what they DON’T want is western style democracy. I’m not disagreeing with you here - I think what happened in Iraq is bad as well, because it’s forcing upon a people something that they don’t like. It won’t work that way.
And that’s what you want to do, in “DP is bad and barbaric and should be abolished”. I’m sorry to say, the people of Singapore (and Texas. Can’t leave out Texas. ;)) don’t think so. Forcing your views on them is about as likely to work as forcing democracy on Iraqis. This is EXACTLY the kind of imperialism I’m talking about - “I know that the DP is inhumane and if I beat you about the head enough you’ll get it too, you barbarian”.
You completely skewered my argument with that skillful straw man there. You’re totally right, an all-out invasion and occupation on false pretences is just the same as diplomatic / trade sanctions. I surrender! Allow me, master, to bow before your mighty argumentative skill!
Yeah, Saddam and the Iraqis were good buddies. The Iraqis never attempted uprisings which were brutally put down, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands. The Kurds? Would never raise a stink. The Marsh Arabs? Totally cool with being evicted from their homelands, didn’t bother to raise a stink about it.
What planet are you on?
Maybe, just maybe, their problems with the US doesn’t stem from an antipathy towards democracy, they just don’t like being bombed by their ‘liberators’ and having glowsticks shoved where the sun don’t shine. Nah, that couldn’t be it.
How is it imperialism, if we’re talking about two advanced Westernised nations? Singapore and Australia are approximate equals here. Similarly, how exactly is Australia imperialistically oppressing the US, by any measure the most powerful nation in the world?
Where’s the difference between this example, and the South African example? There is injustice, I say we campaign against it in legal and democratic ways.
I have to admit that my first thought to go through my head was “Fuck him. He got what he deserved.” I happen to think that drug dealers (including couriers) join child molestors and paid assassins at the bottom of the food chain.
Then I read some of the responses and thought about it some more, and I realized that the death penalty is going too far. I’m very suspicious of countries that trumpet law and order above all other values, and yeah, Singapore is a police state, albeit one of the milder ones. It bans books critical of the culture and breaks up festivals not in accordance with the “moral values of most Singaporeans” as a police member said once about banning a gay Christmas party.
While I don’t believe that the American constitution should be slapped on every nation in the world, I do believe that certain things are just wrong. My belief in the sacredness of free speech leads me to oppose the hate crime laws in Canada, and my belief that the death penalty should be applied sparingly (if at all) leads me to oppose this.
Throw this little shit into prison for 20 years and watch me not care. But death? No.
I’m sorry. Remind me again exactly which people drug dealers are hurting who don’t want to be hurt? Were office workers at Bayer as low as child molesters when they were selling heroin?
Your quote plainly shows that there are very few drug dealers lower than yourself, you narrow-minded, ignorant, fuckwit. Indeed, the vast majority of dealers have never hurt a fly. If they did, the murder rate would be a hundred times what it is now.
If you’re going to keep painting this thread with shit, it might we worth your while to use a slightly smaller brush.
Howard has spoken to Lee face to face several times recently.
Prisoner exchange programmes require the prisoner to serve the same sentence in their home country i.e the death penalty.
An appeal to th ICJ requires Indonesia to grant that the court has jurisdiction. In the US last year an ICJ ruling for a stay of execution was ignored by the state court and the prisoner immediately executed.
Howard quite rightly believes that the use of economic sanctions is inappropriate - it serves only to force government interference in the judiciary.
I agree that it is terrible that this guy is being executed. His one and only dumb act was an attemp to pay off his brother’s gambling debts - he himself was getting nothing for the one-off run.Personally I have no problems with the death sentence for the pathalogically violent but I would rather see the drug trade hamstrung in the Dutch manner.
I think if the Indonesians were smart they would come up with a law like this: Smuggling = DEATH or $100 contribution to rehab services for each dose being carried and deportation. Nguyen would be up for $2,600,000 in fines. If enough Aussies felt sorry for him they could subscribe and free him. Your average career smuggler wouldn’t be able to summon uo enough suport.
Quite a few dealers sell to kids. Are you telling me that a 12 or 13 year old is mature enough to make this decision?
Drug dealers get into little tiffs over who gets to deal drugs where. More than a few elderly ladies, third graders, and schoolteachers catch stray bullets.
Is a drug dealer doing business near your house? Get ready for your property value to drop to the level of that nasty mold you have in your basement sink, especially when the addicts start breaking into nearby residences to finance their habit.
Or did you mean the high-minded dealers who stick to the Dealers’ Code Of Conduct?
Singapore’s got their own think going on. We are supposed to be tolerant of other cultures right (I mean that seriously)? Last I heard, their laws were working out pretty well for them. This guy knew the risks going in and he decided to play anyway. He had the choice of not playing games with Singaporean law but he did and got caught. No big deal. People get killed by consciencely taking risks everyday. As long as the punishment wasn’t altered after the fact, then I see no problem with it.
Like I said, this was my gut reaction. But think about it, Shag. Protesting is illegal in North Korea. That’ll get you put into a “management camp” faster than you can say “Dear Leader.” It’s legal, perfectly in accord with the North Korean constitution (Yes, they actually have one.). Does that make it right?
Drug dealing is a good deal worse than dissent, but the basic question stands. Is this punishment just? It goes deeper than what’s legal by our constitution. We’re talking basic human rights.
I think the rule on respecting other cultures is that you use respect for human rights as the benchmark. I can use this philosophy to respect Islam and condemn Islamic countries for abuses simultaneously without being hypocritical. Of course, that brings up the whole question of what these rights are. Of course there are gray areas, but I think drug dealing falls well short of that.
This would be a good argument if these were the only two countries in the whole world.
Gee, how impressively uncompromising! You are a blackhearted redneck with nothing sensible to contribute to this discussion.
Basic human rights aren’t something that are written in stone. It can be culturally dependent and subject to opinions. You can probably define some human rights that should be universal but I don’t think this falls under that category. For one, he was engaging in an illegal act that threatened the lives of others. Human rights never extend to that point.
Singapore uses threat of death to protect their country from a very serious problem that can kill others, strain law enforcement, hurt the economy, and tear families apart. This is heroin, not marijuana he was bringing in. Singapore also has a different level of drug problem than we do here in the U.S. so our standards don’t really apply. This guy’s actions represented a very serious threat to the citizens of Singapore and the country as a whole. You can look at this as a case as something like treason.
Singapore wants to run a law enforcement and deterrent experiment that fits in with their culture and goals as well as protects its citizens from a threat up to and including death themselves. I see no problem with that. The guy chose to play the game and lost. The game was completely consensual from the start just like two high school kids playing chicken. Sure, it is a shame when someone dies but you can’t really call anyone a victim.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, partly because the difference is one of basic philosophy and partly because I don’t want to get into the positions of defending drug dealing shitbirds and their flunkeys. I certainly won’t shed a tear when this shitbird swings, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s right.
I will say that it sure doesn’t seem that deterrence is working and I also bet that in this kind of society, the powers that be will suddenly find it in their hearts to be merciful if the dealer in question turns out to be a cabinet minister’s son.
Because it’s a drug carrier invading the state’s drug turf.
This is the lead paragraph from the same story linked above by TheLoadedDog, then me:
And:
How does this disprove the money-laundering allegation? When Singapore is mentioned, it is only as a member of an anti-money-laundering group of countries. There is nothing there proving Singapore is anything but a member of a phony committee.
So what?
Yes, it is. Almost being expelled means it wasn’t expelled. And why would it be? The Asean collective is hardly a bulwark of democracy and free speech.
And onto an eight-lane paved highway.
Ridiculous. South Korea isn’t using North Korea as a front and broker for billions worth of drugs and money-laundering.
There’s this :
And this :
From Reporters Without Borders:
Singapore is a police state rolling in drug money, and the thugs running the place will kill anyone it sees as moving in on its turf. Executions are its blinking-neon Trespassers Will Be Shot signs.
Sorry. The quote in my post above, under the “lead paragraph” link, is repeated under the link “Singapore’s drug turf.”
While the german authoritarian in me is saying, “He knew the risks.” the mother in me is weeping right along with this kid’s mother. 
If we simply must make a distinction between drug runner and drug dealer, then I’d say that the bulk of my anger is not directed towards Singapore as much as those heartless bastards who recruit kids into the business, knowing that if they get caught, they’ll hang.
Poor mom.
Well, true. But, you would also be jailed or punished for helping the Jews, or speaking out against the Nazi party.
Now, I’m not necessarily comparing Singapore to Nazi Germany. But the argument that “well, they’re a sovereign nation” is bullshit. Hey, someone tell that to Bush, because hey, Iraq was a sovereign nation, so Saddam Hussein was perfectly in his rights to be a cruel tyrant.
But since I’m against the whole Iraq debacle, here’s a better analogy. Afghanistan was a sovereign nation. So, therefore, they had every right to say “Go piss up a rope!” when we called them on harboring Bin Laden and Al Qaeda members.
So, the way I look at it, the guy was an idiot, but I’m anti-death penalty, and Singapore is all out of proportion when it comes to crime and punishment. (Remember that kid getting caned for spray-painting cars? Yeah he was a brat, but caning? Jesus!). Put the guy in jail for a long time, sure. But death? Surely if he’s that stupid, he’ll eventually eliminate himself from the gene pool.