Mandatory Foreign Language (Not Fair)

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*Originally posted by Ramanujan *

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Isabelle, you do understand that there is no national language in the US, right?

My response to this is English is what is taught in the United States as a first language.
to that, i add that as others have noted, you seem to be advocating that well-rounded curricula requirements are unfair.
—And where do you see that I said this? The only thing that I said I thought was unfair was to make it 2 years foreign language MANDATORY AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL TO GRADUATE.
I think this should be reserved for College.
do you really believe that students should not be required to take things that some of them might never use again?
----Read previous posts.

Actually, as already pointed out, waiting until high school to study a foreign language is already quite late. Waiting until college would be even worse. Once again, you can’t learn a language in a couple years. A lot of practise is needed in order to become fluent. If, for instance, reaching college age, you think you’ll have an use for a foreign language but never studied it before, you can’t expect to reach an acceptable fluncy level before several years of intensive study. It might be OK if you intend to become a teacher, but perhaps not if you just intend to work in the tourism industry and aren’t comtemplating spending several years attending university.

In the same way that being able to have a direct access to foreign sources of information (say reading arabic sources about the war in Irak) would benefit to you. Being able to see things in their historical context is an added bonus, not a necessity.

I specifically excluded “basic maths” and the ability to read/write properly in my question.

English as in the the ability to read/write, I understand. But is there any need to study english and american litterature, or should they be electives? Why? I already discussed maths. Once you know how many gallons of paint you’ll need for you wall, should it be mandatory to learn anything else related to maths? Why? Science? Once again, why? (apart possibly some basics about for instance human reproduction) Couldn’t science be elective too? Do many people use scientific knowledge in their everyday life? History I covered too. It could be an elective also. For people who are interested in history or intend to become, say, archeologist or teachers. As for life classes like basic economics, they’re certainly useful.

Once again, what should be mandatory, acording to you and isn’t absolutely needed in everyday life by everybody (not dependant on your career choice)?

Actually there are very few things which are important life skills, and I would dare to say that many aren’t taught at school. Most of what is taught in school will only be useful for a minority of the students, and only provide to the others a bit more of general culture (they certainly can benefit from it, but thay won’t benefit more from a basic knowledge of science than from a basic knowledge of a foreign language. What is important is what they are willing to do with this “bonus” knowledge).

As for limiting the electives, I just don’t understand. Why not offering as many choices as possible, at the contrary?

But you see, that is clairobscur’s and my point . . . those practical applications of maths you just mentioned are arithmetic, or at the very most, first-semester single-variable algebra. Certainly no cosines or integrals were used to paint the room(And I can hear you… in the last 15 years I have not even solved one quadratic equation). The general curriculum of the modern American “academic” HS (as opposed to Vo-Tech) IS based upon the “Liberal Education” ideal: expose the youth to as much of education in the formative years as possible, if necessary force them to take courses they don’t feel a need for. As it stands, then, future poets still have to take Trig and Physics, future chemists still have to take Spanish (or Slovak :wink: ) and World History.

Or more to the point of the OP question: of course it’s"not fair", it’s High School!! . The OP question could be about a problem not necessarily with languages but with how HS curricula are assembled. Just that in this case, the particular case study is languages, and your judgement that languages are nonessential, or at least not as essential – unlike history and “some” math – to be made mandatory to the general population. (And, respectfully, not aided by some comments about what’s a different educational problem – indeed anyone wishing to function in a society should avail themselves of the means to communicate in it, though it helps if such means are provided other than “sink or swim”)

My girlfriend and her family moved here from Vietnam just after the war, and in the 20+ years they’ve been here, her parents have barely learned even the most basic rudiments of the English language. Yet somehow they have managed to be perfectly functional members of society, never on welfare, always paying taxes, working for a living, running their own business, investing wisely, etc. While my girlfriend and her 3 siblings are perfectly fluent in English (she’s more English than Cantonese), her parents cannot carry on a conversation in English at all. And they mostly do for themselves, never really bothering my girlfriend for much help in translation. So somehow even though they don’t know the language, they still contribute very well.

As bayonet1976 said, learning a new language is very hard, especially ones as different as English and Cantonese. I wish they could speak it, because I have a hard time talking to them, but realistically I’m going to have to learn Cantonese before they will ever be able to pick up English. We all need to adapt, even those who were born here and are not immigrants.

And in any event, here in Ottawa, we sit on the border with Quebec, so we pretty much learn French from day 1. It is always to your benefit to know more languages than one, always. How can knowledge of language be bad? Should it be mandatory? Yes. But I am almost convinced that we should all be studying Mandarin because look out for China in the next 20 years.

That could be true. On the other hand, it could be the other way around. People managing to learn how to communicate in foreign languages are likely to be those who already were interested/ perceived the value of the skill.
Illustrating this thread, I’m currently surfing between the straightdope and other sites, and I sorely regret I’m unable to read Russian. I would have an use for it at this moment in my everyday life (this has something to do with this charming eastern girl I recently met :wink: )

I agree 100% with snoopyfan. In the US we start teaching foreign languages at exaclty the time when our brains start turning off the natural ability to learn them.

Of course teaching a foreign language in elementary school would be pointless as well if the kid never used it after that.

Just as essohbee when English instruction begins in Sweden. I’d bet my next month’s paycheck that it’s not in High School.

I took two years of Latin, three years of French, and four years of Spanish between 7th and 12th grade. My sister taught Spanish at the elementary level for five years. So I may be a little biased.

I consider foreign languages to be among the most important classes available. You learn a great deal, not only about your own language, but about language in general from studying multiple tongues.

Perhaps folks coming to the United States should be fluent in English before they’re allowed to use a telephone, even if they’re trying to call someone fluent in their native language. I won’t argue that point. The fact remains that they aren’t all fluent in English before they get here. Knowing enough Spanish to say, “Lo siento, pero no tiene el numero correcto, y no hablo espanol*,” is a lot more productive than complaining about their inability to speak English on a message board.

Daniel

  • This may be terrible Spanish

I see a tad of hypocrisy there: “If you’re going to move to a foreign place, learn the language.” And yet you’re complaining about someone having to follow a particular requirement if he’s going to attend high school. BTW, would you care to post the particular legislation that makes English the official language of the United States?

I don’t have a site for this but it is common knowledge that English is taught as the first language in the United States.

I was required to have at least 2 years in high school and an additional 2 years in college.

My son is in Kindergarten and is learning Spanish!

The earlier you learn it, the better you will speak it. I am thrilled they are starting him early.

I think it is much more useful over a life time to require children to learn a foreign language than to have to take most advanced math.

p.s. I speak 3 foreign languages and it has opened up amazing worlds and employment opportunities.

Gosh, let’s see, what use has French been to me in my life?

Well, one of my early jobs involved shipping items with UPS to, among other places, Quebec. Regretably, there were significant differences between the French I was taught and Canadian French, but I could communicate. Occassionally the communication was “Can you find someone who speaks English? You’re exceeding my skills in French” but my knowledge of French enabled me to make some sense out of French-managled English on the other end. For this skill, I earned $1 more an hour than the other peons in the office.

It definitely was useful when I went to France.

Haven’t spoken it much in the past 25 years - but I have used it to assist (and occassionally surprise) tourists in Chicago. I have enjoyed the stories of Maupassant, Jules Verne, and Saint-Exupery in their original form, which has given me great pleasure.

When purchasing items in stores I can read ingrediant lists or instructions/warnings written in French and frequently Spanish as well (the written forms of the languages are that close, that many words are the same). This has occassionally saved me money, such as the time I read on the $20, two-ounce bottle of CD cleaner that the ingredients were (written French) isopropyl alcohol and water, after which I went to Walgreen’s and purchased a pint bottle of “CD cleaner” for 69 center.

And, oh yes, I am not dependent on CNN for international news - I can read any French-based news website on the Internet and thereby gain a very different viewpoint from what is pushed by the US media outlets.

Has this translated into a HUGE profit for me? Well, no, not really. I’m sure I would have had a fulfilling and wonderful life without the language skills. But I have found the knowledge handy, and I do derieve great enjoyment from it.

Absolutely, the younger you start learning a second (or third) language the easier it is. However, it is NOT true that adulthood is “too late”. Language ability varies enormously from person to person. Some people can acquire another language quite late in life, some just never seem to have the knack, even when motivated. Myself, I acquired some ability in Irish Gaelic in my late 20’s - not fluency, but enough to ask directions, inquire about the weather, identify objects asked for and make simple requests - in about a year and a half. Given that Irish is not closely related to either English or French, that’s not too bad. I’ve picked up some Spanish as well, just by living in an area with a Spanish-speaking population. No doubt, if I actually studied it I could acquired a working knowledge and be able to communicate. I want to have a go at learning another language, but there isn’t a lot of language instruction easily available - most I’ve found seems to be focused towards full time students who can take classes during weekdays, not adults who need classes on week nights or weekends. Not to mention the attitude of “you’re too old”. No, you’re never too old to try to learn something. I’ve known too many people who moved to the US in their 30’s and 40’s who learned to speak English to believe it’s “too late” in life to learn. Now, they may not ever acquire full fluency, particuarly in conversation, but that doesn’t mean the effort is worthless, or that their level of language learning is useless. Being able to say “I need someone who speaks Russian” while lying injured in an emergency room can be a lifesaver.

So, Isabelle, if I had anything to say about it, I’d make learning a second language mandatory in elementary school. I see nothing unreasonable about making it a requirement for high school graduation. High schoool language classes don’t require fluency to pass - the average human being can earn a passing grade by exerting the same effort used for literature classes, or math and science.

English being the primary language for the majority of the citizenry != English being the national language.

And has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, without you responding, languange development portions of the brain develop much faster the younger one is, generally speaking. By the time a person reaches college age much of the new growth in these areas has stopped or slowed to an effective stop. Saying one should ‘wait til college’ to learn a second language is akin to saying that one should never learn it, or work about 5x as hard to do so. It is my opinion that a foreign language course should be present and manditory from the moment a child enters school.

English being the primary language for the majority of the citizenry != English being the national language.

And has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, without you responding, languange development portions of the brain develop much faster the younger one is, generally speaking. By the time a person reaches college age much of the new growth in these areas has stopped or slowed to an effective stop. Saying one should ‘wait til college’ to learn a second language is akin to saying that one should never learn it, or work about 5x as hard to do so. It is my opinion that a foreign language course should be present and manditory from the moment a child enters school.

English being the primary language for the majority of the citizenry != English being the national language.

And has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, without you responding, languange development portions of the brain develop much faster the younger one is, generally speaking. By the time a person reaches college age much of the new growth in these areas has stopped or slowed to an effective stop. Saying one should ‘wait til college’ to learn a second language is akin to saying that one should never learn it, or work about 5x as hard to do so. It is my opinion that a foreign language course should be present and manditory from the moment a child enters school.

I will agree after reading others posts that a second language should be introduced at an early age.

I guess I woulnd’t have minded so much if I knew somewhere along the line this second language was going to be required for grauduation. I feel like it is a lot of pressure to have to finish your last 2 years of school knowing that if you fail 1 year you’re in deep doo doo.

At least if I had learned earlier then I would have had a year of cushion.

Now that I know this is a requirment I am going to see if I can get my next son who will be attending High School next year can take the lanugage in 9th grade.

I guess being in Florida, Spanish would be the first subject of choice. Does anyone have a suggestion for the best language (as far as being the easiest to learn and the most beneficial in adulthood) I would like to steer my sons in the right direction.

Guidance at school sucks!

By the way my 10th Grader wants to go to Culinary School.

Say Isabelle, would you mind posting why you think Spanish is “the easiest to learn”?

There are man reasons to learn a foreign language:

  1. It’s required to get in to just about every four year college I know. Any student who is capable of passing classes required to get into college should be strongly encouraged to stay on a college track.
  2. It gives you hands on experience with the world outside the Anglosphere. It gives you the skills to dive into other countries a little deeper than you normally would. It allows you to experience their pop culture as well as their great art. It opens the world up just a little bit, even if you are some farm kid or a kid in the ghetto who may never make it out of the US.
    3.Learning one language helps you understand many languages. I personally took French classes. My French sucks, but I can read simple Spanish and Italian passibly. This has gotten me out of any number of jams.
  3. It inspires wonder. To be able to communicate with someone you wouldn’t have…it’s kind of amazing, isn’t it?
  4. It encourages travel. I can’t tell you how many kids I know were looking at studying abroad and had to stick only to English speaking countries. Knowing just one more langauge would have opened up a huge world for them. When I’ve traveled, I’ve used my foreign language skills pretty extensively. Even when I’m in countries with languages I don’t know, it helps just to have experience trying to learn languages and trying to communicate with a limited vocabulary.
  5. It helps you understand your language. The structure of language is increadably hard to comprehend without stepping outside of it. Learning a foreign language helps you do that.
  6. People who don’t speak English are a reality in the US. There are some parts of the US where good chunks of “what the people speak” is Spanish. It’s useful to be able to talk to said people.
  7. It can lead to better career oppertunities. Becomeing fluent in high school is unlikely, but it is possible and it is a good start. Around here, you can raise your salary by about 50% by being bilingual.

I personally think everyone should learn another language as kindergarteners. Theres no good reason not to! Teaching a kid a foreign language is a gift they will use for the rest of their lives.

I didn’t say it was the “easiest to learn” I said I think it would be the first choice since I lived in Florida. In my neck of the woods. Spanish is spoken everywhere. You can not go into a public place without hearing it. That is why I think it would be the first choice.

It may more beneficial to learn because there are so many people in the area that he would actually have more opportunites to speak the language.

Also there is a Spanish channel on tv. Last time I checked there wasn’t another lanaguge on tv (we don’t have cable)

But I am open for suggestions.

I guess French would be more international then Spanish.

Isabelle:

Have them take Spanish, especially the one going to culinary school. He might be able to communicate better with the rest of the restaurant staff.

Spanish is probably the easiest language for English speakers to learn. It’s completely phonetic, and is easier for us to pronounce than French or German (most words have simple consonant-vowel alternating sound patterns).

Thanks John Mace for the suggestion. I forgot that my other son took French. He didn’t need it to graduate. He for some reason just took it as an elective. He was horrible in it.
He had to have a tutor and do a lot of on line work.

He has been out of high school for a year now and has forgotten his 2 years of French.