# Mandatory military service in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935 "2005-06-04T21:50:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/61 "2005-06-06T03:41:28Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > I friend of mine enlisted in the U.S. Army and said it had a positive experience on his life. I was unable to join due to injuries in high school. I believe mandatory service would: > [ul][li]Ensure that our forces are fully-staffed[/li][li]Instill a sense of discipline that seems to be sadly lacking in these days of ‘indigo children’[/li][li]Provide skills that exiting members can use ‘in real life’[/li][li]Teach young people both teamwork and self-reliancy[/li][li]Provide opportunities to break out of one’s little corner of the world[/li][li]Allow people to develop a wider world-view[/ul][/li] \*Staffed to accomplish which mission? \*Yeah…kids these days just don’t listen. Let’s have the government raise them so we don’t have to. \*Field stripping an M-16 and marching 20 miles are not skills I need in “real life” \*So can working on a farm \*Some of us manage to do that just fine on our own \*I tend to doubt that the military is a place to open one’s mind to other cultures ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/62 "2005-06-06T04:11:50Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > Can you be a little more specific about that “many”? **CITE** > > They signed up to pay for college, huh? Well that falls under one of the following headings: > [ul][li] There ain’t such a thing as a “free lunch”[/li][li] Life isn’t fair[/li][li] TS[/ul][/li] > Besides all that there are also those like my youngest son who wanted to serve in the military, but he is deaf in one ear. That isn’t fair is it? 😕 Whatever. The point which you didn’t address was that the modern military isn’t exactly ‘voluntary’ either in the sense that it doesn’t attract people who want to fight for their country or go to war. You have alot of people who just wanted to serve 2 weekends a month to pay for college. Many of the benefits listed to enlisting revolve around education or college. > **[Us-Army-Info.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=us-army-info&e=com)** > > Choose a memorable domain name. Professional, friendly customer support. Start using your domain right away. The top 3 are about college and the 4th is about military education. What that has to do with life being fair I do not know. I never brought that up. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Twain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Mark\_Twain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Twain)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/63 "2005-06-06T04:19:02Z")
Not to start anything personal mssmith537 but what exactly do you know about being in the military? It’s not all about road marches or field stripping weapons. I’ve personally seen 18 year old kids grow over the course of 3-4 years into strong capable leaders that have experienced WAY more than their civilian counterparts. Like I said before… You only get out of it what you put into it. And I’ve seen quite a few people grow in ways you couldn’t imagine. Some stories are even more impressive when you take into account those who started of as Joe Schmoe who would tell stories of life “back on the block”, so to speak, who grew into extremely strong and capable individuals. If you look at a service member and you only see a robot who can operate a weapon and mop floors I really feel sorry for you. Like the addage goes… It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the agitator, who has given us the freedom to protest. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives that protester the freedom to abuse and burn that flag. And as a side note and I’m not speaking to mssmith in particular… If you have misgivings about the military’s agenda maybe we should point the finger at our elected officials. All in all I stand behind what the military has to offer. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/64 "2005-06-06T05:15:53Z")
> [@Mark Twain](#): > > Like the addage goes… I had no idea the soldiers wrote the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/65 "2005-06-06T11:29:25Z")
> [@kniz](#): > > Would you prefer perhaps [**The French Foreign Legion**](http://www.geocities.com/foreignlegionlinks/)? Frying pan. Fire. I still think a lot of the impetus behind any national-service scheme, especially in rightward-leaning times, is based in a half-acknowledged wet dream about mass reeducation. Some of us must really get off on the thought of reconfiguring the iPod children of affluent permissive Volvo-driving liberals into the squinty-eyed skinhead Spartans of a New World Order. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/66 "2005-06-06T11:44:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I had no idea the soldiers wrote the Constitution. No, but it seems to be accepted truth among many that high ideals can only be defended by those who don’t fully accept them. ([George Orwell](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:C-PGZZ4u4UwJ:www.netcharles.com/orwell/ctc/faq.htm+%22rough+men+stand+ready%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8): “Men can only be highly civilised while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them.” In times of threat, of course, the less civilized feel entitled not just to defend the society, but to control it completely.) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/67 "2005-06-06T13:21:43Z")
> [@Mark Twain](#): > > Not to start anything personal mssmith537 but what exactly do you know about being in the military? > > It’s not all about road marches or field stripping weapons. I’ve personally seen 18 year old kids grow over the course of 3-4 years into strong capable leaders that have experienced WAY more than their civilian counterparts. > > Like I said before… You only get out of it what you put into it. > > And I’ve seen quite a few people grow in ways you couldn’t imagine. I’ve never served personally but I know a lot of people who have. But I don’t need to be kicked in the balls to know that it hurts. I agree that the military can provide opportunities that many people might never have and that it serves an essential role in national defense. I’ll even agree that one can gain valuable skills, experience and discipline from the military. But lets not overstate the value of military service. Not every soldier grows into a strong capable leader in the civilian world. In fact, many often have trouble making the adjustment to civilian life. > [@Mark Twain](#): > > It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the agitator, who has given us the freedom to protest. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives that protester the freedom to abuse and burn that flag. Freedom is not something that anybody can be given. Freedom is something people take, and people are as free as they want to be. -James Baldwin Let’s also not forget one of the final lines of A Few Good Men - you don’t need to wear a uniform to have honor. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/68 "2005-06-06T15:36:43Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > Just to be clear, I’m not talking about a draft. A draft, as I see it, means that come people are forced to serve and others aren’t. I think we’ll continue to use the standard dictionary definition rather than your personal variant thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/69 "2005-06-06T15:42:47Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > I did not make up the term ‘indigo children’. In my observation, I see a lot of kids who seem to have little restraint compared to when I was their age. Now, you can say that my perspective is invalid because I would not have recognised poor behaviour when I was that age. Maybe, maybe not. But given ‘zero tolerance’, banning tag games as ‘injurious’ to the person who is ‘it’, team games where scores are not kept because we can’t have ‘losers’, and my own observations (admittedly, as a non-parent) of the way parents don’t discipline their children (see the Pit threads on the subject), I feel that kids are no longer being taught that ‘life isn’t fair’. Insofar as every single one of those idiotic (and I agree that they are that) policies was created by **members of the previous two generations who are now running things** , I don’t think this exactly supports your argument about Them Rotten Kids Today[tm]. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/70 "2005-06-06T15:47:45Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > If the american generals are like the french ones, they just don’t want these people. They’d rather have the money to buy better equipment or to pay professionnal soldiers. > > Until the collapse of the Soviet Union, they needed cannon fodder in order to face a potential attack from the Warsaw Pact. Even then, I recall that the generals didn’t care for Carter’s reactivation of draft registration. While their expressions of their opinions were muted for obvious reasons, it was clear that they regarded it as unhelpful (and as a lame political grandstand attempt to look tough). ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/71 "2005-06-06T22:29:09Z")
It would be WAY too expensive. Out of the ballpark. They’re talking about closing bases for a military with around 1-1.5 million active duty personnel. Around 3 million kids graduate HS every year. That’s a lot of mouths to feed. And pay. And house. And clothe. And train. And supply. And find something to do with. If you’re worried about kids these days my guess is they’ll come to once they taste not having any money. If you want to leave your little corner of the world, _there’s_ the road out of town. If you can take it to join the military, can’t you take it to do just about anything? ---
**Author:** ![Low\_Key\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@Low\_Key\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Low_Key_1)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/72 "2005-06-07T00:31:41Z")
> [@mack](#): > > It would be WAY too expensive. Out of the ballpark. They’re talking about closing bases for a military with around 1-1.5 million active duty personnel. Around 3 million kids graduate HS every year. That’s a lot of mouths to feed. And pay. And house. And clothe. And train. And supply. And find something to do with. > > If you’re worried about kids these days my guess is they’ll come to once they taste not having any money. > > If you want to leave your little corner of the world, _there’s_ the road out of town. If you can take it to join the military, can’t you take it to do just about anything? Just as a side note, mandatory military service wouldn’t necessarily mean that they have to take all eligible candidates. The government would simply be free to choose who they wanted to serve rather than hoping to entice volunteers. This would probably mean it would actually be cheaper. No more need to entice the kids with college educations and other benefits. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/73 "2005-06-07T00:50:12Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Problem: The US type of training is designed so you are almost certain _not_ to enjoy it. We rely on that to create obedience and unit cohesion. I find it hard to believe that the majority of military personnel are in it for the GI Bill. I think a significant portion actually like it. Whether it’s the uniforms, the adventurous aspects, the getting to blow shit up, or the discipline and structure, there is probably a significant percentage of our military personnel who flat out like being in the military. And under my scheme, more people would get to find out that they like it(or don’t) without having to commit quite as fully as they do now. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/74 "2005-06-07T13:33:00Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Insofar as every single one of those idiotic (and I agree that they are that) policies was created by **members of the previous two generations who are now running things** , I don’t think this exactly supports your argument about Them Rotten Kids Today[tm]. Even less so when you stop to consider that the cultural right has ampl;ified them _waaaay_ out of proportion to create the appearance of a social movement that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/75 "2005-06-07T13:40:26Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I find it hard to believe that the majority of military personnel are in it for the GI Bill. I think a significant portion actually like it. Whether it’s the uniforms, the adventurous aspects, the getting to blow shit up, or the discipline and structure, there is probably a significant percentage of our military personnel who flat out like being in the military. > > And under my scheme, more people would get to find out that they like it(or don’t) without having to commit quite as fully as they do now. You still have to get through Basic. That’s where the breaking-down of your old personality occurs. After that, a lot of them probably _do_ like it. The last time we had millions of willing citizen-soldiers (back before the Vietnam era), Basic was…well, _basic._ Hup 2 3 4, here’s yer uniform, here’s yer rifle, make yer rack, write yer ma, etc. A lot less psychological conditioning went on than does now. I don’t see the current generation of educated and skeptical young people submitting to that without a hell of a lot of rebellion going on. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Twain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Mark\_Twain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Twain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/76 "2005-06-07T22:46:23Z")
No, Marley23, soldiers didn’t write the Constitution… they just uphold and defend it. I’m just curious to know what aspect of the military is so egregious that it seems ludicrous for a person to want to serve? Maybe this is for another thread, but what do the naysayers think is so horrible about military service? Perhaps, myself or others who have served can dispell the myths and assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![D.E.S.K.Top668](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@D.E.S.K.Top668](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D.E.S.K.Top668)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/77 "2005-06-08T13:26:42Z")
**Mark Twain** , I only speak for myself, not “all the other naysayers”, but I don’t think there’s a single thing wrong with military service, if that’s what you want to do. In fact, my respect for people in the military is one of the reasons I’m against mandatory service. The armed forces, I assume you’ll agree, is not an adult kindergarten. The job of the military is to defend our country and to enforce, by threat or action, Washington’s foreign policy and America’s interests abroad. The fact that soldiers benefit from their training is just a bonus for them. If it was better from a military stand point to have a bunch of armed, untrained monkeys, I think it’s safe to assume GI Bill money would be going towards banannas instead. Being in today’s military requires a level of commitment that conscripts just wouldn’t have. Just my two cents, DESK ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/78 "2005-06-08T13:43:33Z")
Hhhmm… I don’t support the OP idea… but a good argument in his favor would be the fact that most of the current administration never served or at most did bogus military service. They certainly might be a bit more balanced in their actions if they had been shot at in the past. (I liked Clinton but he could be included as well in the didn’t serve group to be fair.) ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/79 "2005-06-10T02:20:23Z")
But not everyone that goes into the military gets shot at. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/80 "2005-06-10T03:18:18Z")
Actually the VAST majority never see a shot fired in anger, actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935.md?page=5)