# Mandatory military service in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935 "2005-06-04T21:50:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/81 "2005-06-10T07:37:22Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > You go read the enlistment numbers. > > You can’t fight Bushco’s wars without troops. The mechanism correcting itself, even if slowly. > [@Marley23](#): > > Seriously, there ARE other ways to get out in the world and be exposed to people from other backgrounds. If you’re in the military, you might see LESS of the world, since I would imagine you’re going to train stateside unless you get shipped out somewhere. Like my brother; born in raised in small-town Illinois, joined the Air Force to “see the world,” and was stationed for four years in Little Rock, Arkansas. I dealt with a lot of PO’d soldiers down at Ft. Hood for this very reason. > [@Marley23](#): > > I had no idea the soldiers wrote the Constitution. Plenty of the FF had military experience, either with the British Army, the Colonial Militias, or the Continental Army. A lot of blood was spilt securing those rights, and making sure that they aren’t taken away by other nations, and in ensuring other people could either gain or \*re-\*gain those rights. The bottom line is that force was necessary to secure them, and force is necessary to preserve them. **Johnny L.A.:** The Army didn’t do a real good job teaching “self-reliancy.” Soldier pay was often too low to move out of the barracks (generally prohibited until you got married and assigned quarters, or rose up high enough in rank to pay for it yourself), so the “kids” didn’t learn about paying rent and utilities on time, balancing a household budget, etc. And the fact that barracks soldiers are _forced_ to keep the barracks clean is no indicator that they’ll maintain the same standards in an apartment of their own, as I’ve seen plenty of soldier’s homes that were shit holes (almost as a backlash reaction to having been _forced_ to maintain a spotless barracks). And I believe (IIRC the numbers from back when) soldiers (at least in/around Ft. Hood) experienced much higher substance abuse rates, DUI/DWI, check bouncing, spousal abuse, unpaid utilities, etc., etc. You can always cop and say it was an Army problem, or a Ft. Hood problem; that neither the Air Farce, Navy, or Marines were that bad, but I’d believe that to be incorrect, even if hard number smight be hard to come by. No, the Army always told us, “You get out what you put in.” And draftees or mandatory service people will generally not have the incentive to “put into,” or invest themselves in, their military experience. Exceptions will occur, but they’ll be just that: the exception that prove the rule. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Void when Rummy see fit to extend tours and contracts… 😉 I actually think that there are some (very small?) words on the enlistment contract that basically says the government can keep you for however long they want. “Needs of the service” and stuff like that. > [@bump](#): > > I’ve always wondered about the utility of a layer of military service with somewhat less obligation than the National Guard. I believe you’re talking about a classic militia. The government has this partially covered with the Inactive Ready Reserve. The deal is this (for those who don’t know): when you sign up for the military, you’re really signing for 8 years. If you enlist for two, you do your two years, and then six more in the IRR. If you join for four, then it’s four years active, four years IRR. > [@bump](#): > > Actually the VAST majority never see a shot fired in anger, actually. Not in a straight-up fight like WW’s I & 2, and the Gulf War. But in Korea, Vietnam, and the mess in Afghanistan and Iraq, plenty of REMFS are getting shot at. Hell, with something like a 9-to-1 Support/Combatant ratio, the “Tail” is the biggest, softest target of the “Tiger.” > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Problem: The US type of training is designed so you are almost certain _not_ to enjoy it. We rely on that to create obedience and unit cohesion. Actually, **Doug** , I think that’s a harsh and overly simple analysis of military training. In the Basic Training, the idea is kind of to knock the individuality out of the individual recruit; teenagers tend to think that they’re the center of the universe (which is why the older recruits in my basic training outfit actually did better on the academics and “teamwork drills” than the teenagers), and getting them to set aside the “self” to work on difficult and sometimes dangerous tasks together is something few of them are equipped to handle coming into the service. After basic training, the new service member has to learn unit mission tasks, from squad, up through platoon, and on up to company-level specific tasks, which entails a whole 'nother level of training. Since the Army at least maintians that it trains the way it intends to fight, the unit-level training can be intense, uncomfortable, and prolonged that way. But many found it challenging, if not enjoyable, and what I came to appreciate about it (in retrospect) was that: A) it was actually harder than real war, and B) when you’ve been in the field for months at a time, once you come back to the world you _seriously_ appreciate the common things most people take for granted (like family, hot water, refrigerators, clean sheets, washing machines, ice cream, etc.) > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > No, but it seems to be accepted truth among many that high ideals can only be defended by those who don’t fully accept them. ([George Orwell](http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:C-PGZZ4u4UwJ:www.netcharles.com/orwell/ctc/faq.htm+%22rough+men+stand+ready%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8): “Men can only be highly civilised while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them.” In times of threat, of course, the less civilized feel entitled not just to defend the society, but to control it completely.) Well, running an effective combat military on democratic principles is much more often than not an invitation to disaster, as a long record of military history will show. That doesn’t mean that the military rejects democratic principles as the underpinnings of a _civil_ government, just that the military rejects them as a method of unit management/leadership. And I’d like an example from American history in which the military usurped control of American society in time of threat. The civil executive may have delegated lots of normally civil powers to various military commanders in the past (police functions, for example, in the territories), but that’s hardly a usurpation of society. > [@msmith537](#): > > \*I tend to doubt that the military is a place to open one’s mind to other cultures Slight nitpick: I thoroughly enjoyed my time and experiences in Germany, Italy, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar, courtesy of the U.S. Army. The exposure to the history and culture of other nations broadened my perspective and made me appreciate and understand my own culture and history even more. Sure, _some_ Joes will sit on their ass and complain about wierd beer (or no beer at all), and the way the locals talk and dress funny, but most do not. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/82 "2005-06-10T08:13:17Z")
[quote=Beware of Doug= Problem: The US type of training is designed so you are almost certain not to enjoy it. We rely on that to create obedience and unit cohesion.[/quote] My response to that above was kind of off-target. Design intent is neutral towards any “enjoyment” factor, the intent is to make it _challenging_ within certain tactical parameters. Difficulties are designed in and piled up to deliberately create the “Fog of War,” and to train a unit, and by extension its soldiers, to respond rapidly and intelligently to dynamic tactical situations. Any “enjoyment” factor comes from meeting an adverse challenge, and using skill, initiative, and ingenuity, from the lowest soldier to the highest, working together at individual and unit tasks, to overcome the adversity and meet the challenge. A sort of professional accomplishment kind of feeling. “Obediance” is one of those things a lot of civilians don’t get. The military doesn’t want robots; so if an infantry squad reports and enemy batallion moving through their front, and some yahoo company commander orders them to attack, most likely they aren’t going to. If the commander orders them to engage and withdraw so as to slow the enemy while the rest of the company gets set to defend, they most likely will. If the commander orders them to prepare to flank attack once the main body of the enemy is engaged by the rest of the company, they probably will. The obediance factor is there largely to cut down on a lot of the “questioning of authority” democratically-principled citizen-soldiers bring with them. So when an order is given to “build a bridge, cross the river, and attack the enemy,” you don’t get a lot of “Why build a bridge? Why not walk ten miles back to the last bridge and cross there?” I do agree about the unit cohesion part, though. That can only come through competent leadership through adversity. After the Gulf War, we got a new company commander, and lots of new soldiers, and began a whole new round of training. The first mock battle was a disaster. After it was over, more than a few people were expecting the new CO to blow his stack. He just walked up, lit a smoke, and said with a cheerfull smile, “Well, that really went well, didn’t it?” He then proceeded to critique the unit honestly and dispassionately, including his own screw-ups, and he pretty much cemented the NCOs and officers right then and there. With the confidence of his officers and NCOs behind him, the regular troops “caught the drift” and trusted and respected his judgement, even when we “failed.” Because in training, you can still learn a lot even when you fail. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/83 "2005-06-10T10:51:10Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > For every great electronics wizard who got a job with the FAA due to there education in the military, are about 20 or so who couldn’t even make it in the kitchen. What is that supposed to mean? Just because someone works in the kitchen doesn’t mean that they are an idiot who couldn’t do anything else. This is specifically the reason that I have to take so much crap everyday from my “betters” that work with jets on the flightline. SrA Adler, USAF Cook, who got fucked into his job as a cook even though he has an overall 99 ASVAB score and TS/SCI clearance. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/84 "2005-06-10T11:35:26Z")
I just found this thread today - so I’m jumping in late. I’d like to take a moment to ignore some of the back & forth that has been going on for much of the thread and simply go back to the OP with my own response. I am vehemently against mandatory service. I am a veteran of the Navy, and I’m glad I got in. I’m also glad I’m out, too. While I was in, I met many a serving enlisted man, and at least two serviing officers, who were quite vocal in thinking that they had been ‘tricked’ into serving. This is different from people who hated the Navy. Or even the command. (Hell, I was on a ship that damned near had an XO who instituted the old ‘Liberty is secured until morale improves.’) Everyone in my division hated the command, and most were pretty negative towards the Navy in general. That included several of the men who’d made decisions to have careers, too. But those who felt that they’d been tricked were less dependable. Less willing to work with the rest of the crew, and quite honestly, people whom I (And others I’d spoken to about the issue) didn’t want backing me up in any kind of real casualty situation. I served from 1989 to 1994. I was not in during the Vietnam era. And I was in the Navy, not the Army, where the institutional experience was still far more all-volonteer than the Army’s experience. And none of the people I’d met who’d had experience from that period wanted to go back. Added to this is my belief for all the good things that military service can provide - it’s not for everyone. There are people who, for a number of reasons - most of which are **not** flaws, shouldn’t be asked to serve in the military. So, overall, while I’ll admit that there are some hypothetical benefits to mandatory military service - I don’t think it’s a good idea. At least not now for the US. Since the draft has been brought up I’d like to address those people who believe that a draft is necessary to meet the recruitment goals of the military. I do not believe that a draft is an efficient way to improve numbers - a better way would be to increase benefits for service members (and to a lesser extent, Veterans) and their families. While I was in the military the government service employees were getting, IIRC on average 3% annual COLA raises. During this same time period - military and veteran COLA’s were approximately 1%. After long, drawn out Congressional fights spearheaded by Sen. John Glenn. I understand the reasoning for this - civil servants vote routinely, and in geographic blocks. Military personnel who vote are in the minority - and their votes are spread across the country. That doesn’t mean that I ever felt anything other than used, and unappreciated when it kept happening, EVERY EFFING year. I don’t have a cite, but the impression I have is that military pay spending power, especially enlisted pay, has been losing purchasing power for decades, now, compared to inflation and other government jobs. Frankly, given the cost of taking the Selective Service and making it active (instead of simply paperwork for the purpose of patronage jobs) will be more than the cost of paying military personnel better. And, give a lower quality military force after all is said and done. I may be wrong for most of this: I’m going on anecdotal evidence and my own experience which can’t be considered typical for a number of reasons. Having said that, I’ve never been convinced by any of the arguments for the other sides. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/85 "2005-06-10T12:44:45Z")
> [@drgnrdr07](#): > > Just because someone works in the kitchen doesn’t mean that they are an idiot who couldn’t do anything else. You’re right, but read it again: > [@](#): > > …who **couldn’t** even make it in the kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/86 "2005-06-10T13:33:21Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > You’re right, but read it again: By saying that you are suggesting that a kitchen is the lowest form of a job. It would be like saying: He is so dumb he couldn’t even be a Marine. He is so spoiled not even the Air Force would take him. Blah, blah, blah… Do you get how I would find what you said pretty offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/87 "2005-06-10T15:07:39Z")
Yeah, but the military has its own unofficial hierarchy, and like it or not, kitchen workers are pretty close to the bottom. You can’t really deny this. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/88 "2005-06-10T16:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Yeah, but the military has its own unofficial hierarchy, and like it or not, kitchen workers are pretty close to the bottom. You can’t really deny this.[/QUOTE} I am not sure what you mean by this. There are two jobs in the AF that nobody wants: Services (cooking, lodging, fitness, mortuary) and Security Forces (cops). Since nobody wants these jobs, people who go into the military with open general or get pushed back in their tech schools end up getting stuck with those jobs. If by hierarchy you mean desirable jobs, then I guess you are right, Services isn’t most peoples first choice. As far as the kitchen being occupied by people who weren’t qualified to do anything else, it isn’t true at all. I am sorry if I took this too personal, but it gets annoying to hear how kitchen workers couldn’t cut it in another job and that is why they are there, 95% of the people I have known in this career were forced into it because of AF needs. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/89 "2005-06-10T18:03:24Z")
For what it’s worth, my grandfather was a cook in World War II after first training as an airplane mechanic. They had plenty of mechanics, but not as many people who could actually cook, so he got reassigned. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/90 "2005-06-10T18:10:01Z")
Definitely. Never underestimate the positive morale value of decent (even good) chow on the troops. We had hellaciously good cooks in my unit in Germany, and those guys could throw together a hell of a meal even out in the field. They were appreciated and respected, regardless of whatever other merits they may have had (or been lacking in). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/91 "2005-06-10T18:38:03Z")
See, that’s another disadvantage of mandatory military service. If you draft everybody, you’ll get the cream of the crop of the nation’s 18-year-olds, but you’ll also get a whole lot of lowlifes with no capabilities and no motivation. Many of those will end up in the kitchens. I speak from experience. The best food I ever had in the military was when I was in small (company-sized or smaller) outposts and we prepared our own food, without cooks to screw things up. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/92 "2005-06-13T21:59:38Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > If there is going to be a draft…and I believe there is no way around it…that is how it will be sold. There is absolutly no way that there will be another draft, short of a war for the nation’s survival. The number one reason? The military itself is so against it. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/93 "2005-06-14T01:47:15Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I believe you’re talking about a classic militia. The government has this partially covered with the Inactive Ready Reserve. The deal is this (for those who don’t know): when you sign up for the military, you’re really signing for 8 years. If you enlist for two, you do your two years, and then six more in the IRR. If you join for four, then it’s four years active, four years IRR. Yeah, I guess I am thinking of something more along the lines of a classical militia. I was always on the edge of serving when I was young enough, but was never really sure if it was something that I’d want to commit to for as long as is required. Even the NG is kind of a pain- it’s essentially every other weekend, all weekend. I’d have signed up in a militia (a real one, not some white supremacist thing) in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/94 "2005-06-14T19:51:36Z")
How useful to the US would autonomous Militia units be or could be ? At best they are second rate occupation troops no ? I’d warrant they are best good for defensive purposes… and in an invasion of the US scenario… which is obviously unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/95 "2005-06-15T02:00:54Z")
You may not know this, \*\* Rashak Mani\*\* but the US National Guard is really the state militia (the “organized” militia, if you hear that term in gun control threads), and is under state command unless specifically federalized and brought into the US Army. As a predominantly state-controlled military force, it is used in times of disaster, for keeping the civil order, etc… I don’t think the Posse Comitatus Act applies to the National Guard, unless it’s been federalized, so State governors can use it to enforce the laws of the state and impose martial law, etc… With the increasing employment of the National Guard overseas, a classical Militia might be useful for many of those tasks in lieu of the National Guard, as well as providing a reservoir of trained troops to be used in some other emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/96 "2005-06-15T14:19:57Z")
I know about the National Guard… but on the previous post you mentioned the NG being a pain… every other weekend. So you seemed to imply some sort of autonomous non-government militia. Local club with guns of sorts. The National Guard are already considered sub-par troops compared to regular troops… I’d imagine a second rate “national guard” would be less useful except in internal defense. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/97 "2005-06-15T19:57:19Z")
> [@bump](#): > > With the increasing employment of the National Guard overseas, a classical Militia might be useful for many of those tasks in lieu of the National Guard, as well as providing a reservoir of trained troops to be used in some other emergency. And that would be the state Defense Forces. They’re state militia units controlled by the governor, that, by federal law, can’t be made to serve out of state. Here’s Virginia’s website: [http://www.virginiadefenseforce.org/](http://www.virginiadefenseforce.org/) And here’s the New York State Guard’s: [http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/nyg/nyg.html](http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/nyg/nyg.html) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/98 "2005-06-16T01:21:15Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > The National Guard are already considered sub-par troops compared to regular troops… I’d imagine a second rate “national guard” would be less useful except in internal defense. Actually, it depends on what sort of NG units you’re talking about. The Air National Guard units frequently beat up on regular AF units, in spite of somewhat less than first-line equipment. I don’t know about the Army NG, but I suspect it really doesn’t give up too much to the regular Army- even though the regulars are at it full-time, the NG guys are in the same units for years and years(they’re regionally based), while the regular guys tend to be transferred around a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/99 "2005-06-16T14:37:05Z")
> [@drgnrdr07](#): > > SrA Adler, USAF Cook, who got fucked into his job as a cook even though he has an overall 99 ASVAB score and TS/SCI clearance. Sweet Jesus, Adler! Are you the five-star chef on the orbital mind-control satellite or something? What on earth possessed personnel to put a TS/SCI-cleared person in a services job? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935/100 "2005-06-16T22:58:35Z")
AIUI, the way that recruiting for the AF works is that they’ll _screen_ you for any job you want before you sign your papers. However, once the papers are signed, they assign you based on “the needs of the service.” FWIW, he could spend two years and thousands of taxpayer $ first to be trained to operate a nuclear power plant, then spend months working as scut labor for the cooks aboard ship in the Navy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-military-service-in-the-u-s/306935.md?page=6)