# Mandatory reporting for child abuse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189 "2014-04-15T16:48:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/1 "2014-04-15T16:48:26Z")
I have only a vague layman’s knowledge of the specifics of mandatory reporting laws for child abuse, but they’ve always struck me as a clearly very good thing. However, a story about pedophilia on the most recent **This American Life** got me thinking that there might be some downsides. (Note: the TAL story touched on the issue only briefly, and was certainly not endorsing dismantling these laws or anything.) The argument goes like this: suppose someone has pedophilic urges and has engaged in some number of acts of moderate severity, but feels guilty about it, and wants to “go clean”. In the old days (at least, this is the implication from the TAL story) they could go talk to a therapist and say “here’s how I feel, here’s what has happened, how can you help me?”, and the therapist would be bound by doctor-patient confidentiality, and would be able to try to help them. With mandatory reporting laws, if that person goes to the therapist, the therapist is required by law to turn them in and report the past acts. Which seems like a good thing… except of course that it means that the pedophile just won’t go to a therapist at all. Now clearly we’d all prefer that no one ever commit pedophilic acts at all, and that anyone who committed them would be caught and punished immediately. But in an imperfect real world, I can certainly see a possibility that mandatory reporting laws, at least as far as they apply to people self-reporting to therapists, actually increase the total number of pedophilic acts, because they remove one possible escape route for people who have committed some offenses but honestly wish to stop. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/2 "2014-04-15T16:51:37Z")
“…and has engaged in some number of acts of moderate severity”-How does confidentiality between the abuser and the doctor deal with the victims of these crimes? ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/3 "2014-04-15T17:00:51Z")
It is difficult to see where doctor-patient confidentiality could be breached unless the patient told the doctor about on-going or future crimes or if the patient or his/her legal guardian waived that confidentiality. The fact that someone admits to criminal activity in the past (which itself may be a lie or a delusion) would probably make most clinical professionals loath to report something that they aren’t truly certain that occurred for fear of legal repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/4 "2014-04-15T17:15:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “…and has engaged in some number of acts of moderate severity”-How does confidentiality between the abuser and the doctor deal with the victims of these crimes? I’m not sure quite what you’re asking. Certainly, if a child was abused and then the abuser goes to talk to a therapist, you’d initially think that justice for the would be for the therapist to turn in the abuser. But if the two choices for the child are: (1) the abuser goes and talks to a therapist and tries to get better, but is never reported for the pre-existing crime (2) the abuser, knowing about mandatory reporting laws, does NOT go and talk to a therapist, and remains an abuser Then in neither case does the child get “justice”, but in the first case, it’s at least arguable that society as a whole is better off. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/5 "2014-04-15T17:28:23Z")
In PA, mandatory reporting pertains to a child coming before you in your professional capacity. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/6 "2014-04-15T18:07:06Z")
What the therapist is required to report may be different from what the pedophile tells their therapist. The purpose of mandatory reporting is to protect children, but not children in general. You are reporting that a _specific_ child is at risk now- not that children in general are at risk, not that specific children were victims of a crime in the past. Not only that, typically reports of child abuse/neglect can be made only against certain people - parents/guardians or members of a child’s household. And after reading \*\*Hentor’s \*\*post on preview ,I am reminded that in some places reporters are mandated only if the child comes before them in their professional capacity while others ( like mine) mandate a report if the child, parent or other person legally responsible for the child are before the reporter in his/her professional capacity. Simply telling a therapist you are attacted to children- no mandatory report. Telling the therapist you are addicted to kiddie porn- no mandatory report. Telling the therapist you have an overwheming urge to have sexual contact with a child who lives with you - mandatory report, depending on the state. Telling the the rapist you had that contact with your younger sibling twenty years when you were 17 and your sibling was 6- no report. Child tells his/her therapist about sexual abuse by a member of the household- mandatory report. Mandatory reporting has been in existence for at least 30 years and it generally doesn’t only appply to sexual abuse. From my recollection of working in child protection, there were few, if any reports of sexual abuse coming from the perpetrator’s therapist. Reports from therapists generally either involved physical abuse or neglect or came from the child’s therapist. My guess is for some reason perpetrators are more willing to disclose the specifics of beating their kids than they are to disclose the specifics of sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/7 "2014-04-15T19:58:04Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > …Not only that, typically reports of child abuse/neglect can be made only against certain people - parents/guardians or members of a child’s household… Not sure about the rest of your post, but this has _got_ to be utter bullshit. It is simply inconceivable that someone couldn’t be reported because of their relationship, or lack of it, with the victim. What about the creepy stranger who hangs out by the schoolyard? Or someone who lives down the street from the kid? Or the assistant college football coach who’s part of some program at a big university … ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/8 "2014-04-15T20:12:21Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not sure about the rest of your post, but this has _got_ to be utter bullshit. It is simply inconceivable that someone couldn’t be reported because of their relationship, or lack of it, with the victim. What about the creepy stranger who hangs out by the schoolyard? Or someone who lives down the street from the kid? Or the assistant college football coach who’s part of some program at a big university … [http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter42/s42.41.html](http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/049/chapter42/s42.41.html): > [@](#): > > Perpetrator—A person who has committed child abuse and is a parent of the child, a person responsible for the welfare of a child, an individual residing in the same home as a child or a paramour of a child’s parent. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/9 "2014-04-15T20:18:32Z")
You mean that if a child comes to a school counselor and claims to have been sexually assaulted by a stranger on the way to school, the counselor is not obliged to report it? It this is true, it’s insane, but nevertheless I apologize to **doreen**. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/10 "2014-04-15T20:24:11Z")
I suppose the assistant football coach meets the “person responsible for the welfare of a child” if that coach is expected to have occasional and temporary custodial care of the child, as teachers do. I gather the therapist is compelled to report on likely future abuses from someone with authority over the child, which would be the case if the kid still is part of that football program, but less clear if it’s just random encounters with neighbors or bullies. I cheerfully admit my ignorance of the issue, though I can see the minefield nature of it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/11 "2014-04-15T20:29:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I suppose the assistant football coach meets the “person responsible for the welfare of a child” if that coach is expected to have occasional and temporary custodial care of the child, as teachers do. I gather the therapist is compelled to report on likely future abuses from someone with authority over the child, which would be the case if the kid still is part of that football program, but less clear if it’s just random encounters with neighbors or bullies. > > I cheerfully admit my ignorance of the issue, though I can see the minefield nature of it. Let say the child can identify the attacker, who she claims is “Bill, the hardware store clerk”. It’s simply mind boggling to me that a child care professional would not have a legal obligation to report that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/12 "2014-04-15T20:36:25Z")
I dunno, I can see the child-care professional encouraging the child to alert the police, but the automatic passing of hearsay is… tricky. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/13 "2014-04-15T20:38:21Z")
Here’s Alberta’s Mandatory reporting rules. > [@](#): > > 1. Responsibility to Report a Child in Need of Intervention > According to the Act, any individual that has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that a child is in need of intervention should report that information to a director. Any person that fails to report a child in need of intervention is guilty of an offence and may be found liable to a fine of not more than $2000 and/or imprisoned for a term of not more than 6 months. In almost all circumstances, an individual who reports a potential child in need of intervention is free from the possibility of legal action. Even individuals who gain information in confidence, where the breach of that confidence would typically be a criminal offence, are free from any legal action when reporting child welfare issues. However, if a report is made maliciously or without grounds, then that individual could face legal action. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/14 "2014-04-15T20:43:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The argument goes like this: suppose someone has pedophilic urges and has engaged in some number of acts of moderate severity, but feels guilty about it, and wants to “go clean”. In the old days (at least, this is the implication from the TAL story) they could go talk to a therapist and say “here’s how I feel, here’s what has happened, how can you help me?”, and the therapist would be bound by doctor-patient confidentiality, and would be able to try to help them. With mandatory reporting laws, if that person goes to the therapist, the therapist is required by law to turn them in and report the past acts. Which seems like a good thing… except of course that it means that the pedophile just won’t go to a therapist at all. That raises an obvious question: is going to a therapist going to help someone who is already abusing children? I’m skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/15 "2014-04-15T20:44:47Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not sure about the rest of your post, but this has _got_ to be utter bullshit. It is simply inconceivable that someone couldn’t be reported because of their relationship, or lack of it, with the victim. What about the creepy stranger who hangs out by the schoolyard? Or someone who lives down the street from the kid? Or the assistant college football coach who’s part of some program at a big university … What is typically meant by “mandatory reporting of child abuse” is reporting the abuse or maltreatment of a child to the child protective agency which seeks to protect the child, not to punish crime. For example, if a parent molests a child, the child protective agency will seek to remove the child from the parent’s custody through a Family/Juvenile court order. But all that court can do is put the child into the custody of someone other than the parent, set conditions for the parent to retain/regain custody or teminate the parent’s custody . Neither that court nor that agency has any jurisdiction over an assistant football coach who rapes or murders a child. You can report _anyone_ to the police if you have reason to think they are committing a crime and you can report teachers, day care workers,therapists, etc to various other agencies. On preview - **Boyo Jim ,** there may be obligations other than the mandatory reporting laws that come into play. For example, if a child tells me that Bill the hardware store clerk molested her , I will be required by my employer to report that to the police as I am a peace officer. The school counselor may be required to inform the student’s parents by the terms of a license or district policy. but neither of those involve being a mandated reported or the child protective agency . One way to think of it is as mandated reporters being required to report what parents won’t- there’s no reason to think the parents won’t report an assault by the hardware clerk or the stranger. There’s every reason to believe that neither Mom nor Dad is going to report that Dad had a few too many last night and threw Bobby down the stairs- because these laws aren’t only about sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/16 "2014-04-15T20:48:48Z")
Looks problematic. Does the therapist have to pass on an accusation of abuse, breaking confidence, while maintaining it for other potentially relevant issues, i.e. the therapist has gleaned that the child is a compulsive liar? I get that leaving the issue (to some degree) to the therapist’s discretion is not perfect, but I prefer it over the absolute of having to report anything the child might say about being abused, especially if it carries an accusation against adults who may be innocent or even nonexistent. I’m skittish about zero-tolerance policies in any form. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/17 "2014-04-15T21:05:12Z")
I suspect state laws vary widely in the details. Kansas statute 38-2223:Reporting of certain abuse or neglect of children; persons reporting; reports, made to whom; penalties; immunity from liability. (a) Persons making reports. (1) When any of the following persons has reason to suspect that a child has been harmed as a result of physical, mental or emotional abuse or neglect or sexual abuse, the person shall report the matter promptly as provided in subsections (b) and ©; The list of mandatory reporters includes pretty much all medical and mental health professionals, teachers and school administrators, law enforcement, firefighters, child care providers, drug and alcohol counselors, etc. In Kansas, the school counselor would be required to report Bill the hardware clerk, the assistant football coach, and the creepy stranger to either the state child protective services or law enforcement. For that matter, Bill’s therapist is legally required to report anything Bill says that leads the therapist to suspect a real child has been harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/18 "2014-04-15T21:10:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > … One way to think of it is as mandated reporters being required to report what parents won’t- there’s no reason to think the parents won’t report an assault by the hardware clerk or the stranger. … Unless it turns out that Bill the hardware clerk is dad’s brother in law. Or, what if a school nurse sees some bruising and asks the kid about it, and the kid blames Bill the hardware clerk. No mandatory reporting? The kid could be lying and maybe it really is Dad. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/19 "2014-04-15T21:11:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That raises an obvious question: is going to a therapist going to help someone who is already abusing children? I’m skeptical. Based on studies of those who have been caught and convicted of sex crimes against children, yes, people who receive treatment are much less likely to reoffend. For example, in a [New Jersey study](https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/243551.pdf): > [@](#): > > Overall, when comparing general recidivism rates for offenders who received sex offender treatment (ADTC) to those who did not , we found that those offenders who did not receive treatment recidivated at twice the rate of those who did receive treatment (51.7% versus 25.0%). Even when matched with regard to risk for reoffending (as indicated by Static-99 scores), this difference in general recidivism remained (49.1% recidivism for non-treated offenders versus 22.0% recidivism for treated offenders). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189/20 "2014-04-15T22:11:09Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Based on studies of those who have been caught and convicted of sex crimes against children, yes, people who receive treatment are much less likely to reoffend. For example, in a [New Jersey study](https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/243551.pdf): > > > [@](#): > > > > Overall, when comparing general recidivism rates for offenders who received sex offender treatment (ADTC) to those who did not , we found that those offenders who did not receive treatment recidivated at twice the rate of those who did receive treatment (51.7% versus 25.0%). Even when matched with regard to risk for reoffending (as indicated by Static-99 scores), this difference in general recidivism remained (49.1% recidivism for non-treated offenders versus 22.0% recidivism for treated offenders). But that’s people who are already caught, convicted, and locked up. The OP is asking about people who are actively abusing children and haven’t been caught: > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The argument goes like this: suppose someone has pedophilic urges and has engaged in some number of acts of moderate severity, but feels guilty about it, and wants to “go clean”. If they’re already abusing children - not in the past, but in the present - can therapy help them stop? If the answer is yes, maybe there is an issue here. If the answer is no, then there’s not much reason to care if these people aren’t comfortable going to a therapist. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-for-child-abuse/686189.md?page=2)