# Mandatory reporting laws should be re-thought **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250 "2014-06-07T04:38:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/21 "2014-06-07T21:18:23Z")
Would you befriend the released pedophile, and trust him to look after your young children? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/22 "2014-06-07T21:19:14Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > …s/he comes into tx with booze on their breath… It’s different in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/23 "2014-06-07T21:21:53Z")
They don’t have DUI laws in Texas? I did not know that. And if you have a counter-proposal, I guess I’m confused about what that is? In your ideal solution, are there any prisons/incarcerations? If so, for what? If not, what is your proposal short of ‘offering f\*\*\*\*rindship’? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/24 "2014-06-07T21:24:32Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > OK, let’s grant that for sake of argument. And then you’re the therapist, working with the alcoholic, and s/he comes into tx with booze on their breath, and drove to their appointment. Do you let it go because they are “working on it”? > If you are treating Dexter, and he makes friends with your child? The more analogous situation would be you’re the therapist, working with the alcoholic, and s/he comes in and tells you they got rip-roaring drunk one day two years ago and drove home. Do you as the therapist feel compelled to call up the sheriff and report this past crime? Now if the patient comes in and reports current and ongoing abuse, that’s a different situation than somebody who mentions a previous crime. In my state, e.g., the statute of limitations can (depending on circumstances) extend up to 28 years, and the therapist is a mandatory reporter for every single minute of that time. In fact, if you as the therapist hear about a crime on which you are reasonably confident the statute of limitations is expired and/or the patient is not now (or never was) a pedophile, you are STILL required to report it. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/25 "2014-06-07T21:46:07Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The more analogous situation would be you’re the therapist, working with the alcoholic, and s/he comes in and tells you they got rip-roaring drunk one day two years ago and drove home. Do you as the therapist feel compelled to call up the sheriff and report this past crime? > > Now if the patient comes in and reports current and ongoing abuse, that’s a different situation than somebody who mentions a previous crime. In my state, e.g., the statute of limitations can (depending on circumstances) extend up to 28 years, and the therapist is a mandatory reporter for every single minute of that time. In fact, if you as the therapist hear about a crime on which you are reasonably confident the statute of limitations is expired and/or the patient is not now (or never was) a pedophile, you are STILL required to report it. I disagree that yours is the better anology re: the OP, which sounds like it was a situation a lot more recent that 2 yrs ago. It also requires the therapist to feel confident that they can make an assessment, based upon nothing more than the pt’s self-report, that they are “not a pedophile” even though they’ve apparently confessed to you that they’ve engaged in some sort of 'pedophilic behavior" in the past. So, yeah, if a guy comes in to my office and tells me he sodomized a 3 yr old 28 years ago and got away with it, under the assumption that he can find another 3 yr old whenever he wants to, I’m reporting him right now, even if he’s ‘struggling’ to get better. I notice you left “Dexter” out of your reply, also. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/26 "2014-06-07T21:47:47Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > If you are treating Dexter, and he makes friends with your child? Actually, Dexter the fictional serial killer was a staunch defender of children. Arguably, since he’s more than willing to kill to protect them he’d make a damn fine guardian and your analogy is terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/27 "2014-06-07T22:28:39Z")
:smack: I was afraid that would happen. I only know “Dexter” from popular culture, haven’t watched the show yet. Feel free to make a more appropriate substitution with my thanks - Gacy, maybe? Richard Ramirez? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/28 "2014-06-08T04:28:43Z")
I have first-hand experience with the mandatory reporting law (in California). Many years ago when I was in therapy, during some remarks which he thought were leading in a particular direction, my therapist stopped me and said that if I admitted to any such act to him, he was required to report it. (For the record, I was not going where he thought I was, and we cleared that up before the end of the session.) Ideally, then, it would always be possible to warn someone in therapy in advance so that they could avoid talking about actual events if necessary. I think, for example, that “I like to diddle children” would not have to be reported, but “I have diddled children” would. The former is only a feeling or desire, and as such is not (and should not be) actionable by the law if that’s as far as it went. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/29 "2014-06-08T06:49:34Z")
I’m stunned by this thread because I had no idea that mandatory reporting laws applied to the patient. I thought that anything I told my doctor/therapist was confidential and protected much like a client’s conversation with an attorney. If a client comes into my office and says that he killed his mother and buried her under his garage, I cannot say anything to anyone. If he says that he plans on killing his mother this evening, then I MAY report that to the authorities if I choose. The whole purpose of these privileges, at least I thought, was so that the pedophile in the OP’s example could go get help without fear of reprisal. So he molested Susie last week, but he wants to get help to not do it again. He (at least my thought was) could freely tell the therapist about what happened last week and the therapist had to keep quiet because what was done is done and can’t be changed. Only if there is credible evidence he will do it again can the therapist talk. I can see how such requirements are counterproductive and will lead such pedophiles to stay away from any kind of therapy. He might want to stop, but he will figure out that part of his therapy will be admitting what he did to Susie last week and he will go to jail. Nope, best not to go there and just try to stop on his own. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/30 "2014-06-08T07:04:50Z")
In California the reporting requirement for therapists is generally if the therapist has a reasonable suspicion that a patient has abused a child or elder, or threatens to credibly harm an identifiable victim. (Abridged because it’s late and I don’t like to type much). If a patient threatens to go into your local school tomorrow and set a new record for mass shootings, you want the therapist to sit on that? If he’s your son’s teacher and admits to having molested 5 children in his classroom this year (making progress, last year he molested 10), same question? I don’t know about attorney/client privilege, or priest/confessor, but no, you cannot confess plans to injure a child and expect a therapist to keep quiet about it. In fact, if the therapist does, he/she will likely be successfully sued (the initial civil case establishing this was called the Tarasoff case). A good therapist would educate you to the limits of confidentiality in the first session. In short, therapists are seen to have a duty to the community at large as well, and not just the client, and obviously sometimes these conflict. Also, most pedophiles don’t fit your example. If one did come in under your scenario, and Susie was your daughter, how would you feel about the client’s privilege of confidentiality if he was coming in week after week saying “well, I molested JT’s daughter again last week”? Can you imagine there might be good grounds to break a client’s privilege? What do you imagine they might be? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/31 "2014-06-08T07:42:37Z")
Having worked in Crisis Assessment Mental Health in the UK, we had a standard mantra for anyone who started to disclose any wrong doing in assessment. We regarded medical confidentiality highly and also the standard of trust in a therapeutic relationship. If a person began to discuss illegal behaviours, the interview would be stopped and we would say “I must stop you there and warn you that anything you say from this point which points to a serious criminal offence may be reported to the appropriate authorities. You must understand that from this point onwards we cannot keep to normal client confidentiality.” This meant that any admissions made were voluntary and not accidental, and that we were clear about the limits of confidentiality. It also allows consent for disclosure to be obtained in cases where the person continues to speak and clarifies whether disclosure should be made. The rule we worked on was that a first admission would not be questioned further but the above statement made. If the matter was repeated then it would be recorded; if not then we would not record it in the assessment regarding it as unexamined evidence. It really helped that we worked in pairs when such decisions were made. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/32 "2014-06-08T08:05:40Z")
**Tony Soprano:** We saw this guy, and there was this issue of an oustandin’ loan… **Dr. Melfi:** Can i stop you for a second? I don’t know where this story is going. But there are a few ethical ground rules we should quickly get out of the way. What you tell me here falls under doctor/patient confidentiality. Except, if I was, uh – if I was to hear, let’s say, a murder was to take place. Not that i’m saying it would, but if – if a patient comes to me and tells me a story where someone’s going to get hurt, I’m supposed to go to the authorities. Technically. I don’t know what happened with this fellow, I – I’m just saying. **Tony Soprano:** Nothing. We had coffee. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/33 "2014-06-08T08:17:20Z")
This is a no-brainer. The child victim comes first. If this had not been reported the upshot would be a young girl out there, frightened, traumatized, with no support (she clearly hadn’t told her parents). Do you really want to put the interest of the pedophile above that of the victim? Mandatory reporting is important for the sake of the victims. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/34 "2014-06-08T08:58:45Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > In California the reporting requirement for therapists is generally if the therapist has a reasonable suspicion that a patient has abused a child or elder, or threatens to credibly harm an identifiable victim. (Abridged because it’s late and I don’t like to type much). If a patient threatens to go into your local school tomorrow and set a new record for mass shootings, you want the therapist to sit on that? If he’s your son’s teacher and admits to having molested 5 children in his classroom this year (making progress, last year he molested 10), same question? I don’t know about attorney/client privilege, or priest/confessor, but no, you cannot confess plans to injure a child and expect a therapist to keep quiet about it. In fact, if the therapist does, he/she will likely be successfully sued (the initial civil case establishing this was called the Tarasoff case). A good therapist would educate you to the limits of confidentiality in the first session. In short, therapists are seen to have a duty to the community at large as well, and not just the client, and obviously sometimes these conflict. Also, most pedophiles don’t fit your example. If one did come in under your scenario, and Susie was your daughter, how would you feel about the client’s privilege of confidentiality if he was coming in week after week saying “well, I molested JT’s daughter again last week”? Can you imagine there might be good grounds to break a client’s privilege? What do you imagine they might be? If the patient (or in my profession, the client) has FUTURE plans of doing harm, then I would report it and I agree that it should be reported. If he is discussing past acts, then at least in my profession, I am ethically bound not to say anything. If a patient or a client was saying week after week that he was raping someone’s daughter then I think it a fair assumption that he is going to continue those acts into the future and can be reported, not for the past acts, but as a danger to do them again. I’m not saying that he should have blanket immunity simply because he tells a therapist; just that the therapist shouldn’t be a legal tool against him. Otherwise, what is his choice if he truly wants help? He can’t do anything that won’t put him in jail. So he gets no treatment and keeps raping young girls. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/35 "2014-06-08T10:30:12Z")
What happens if the pedophile client tells the therapist of crimes he’s committed in the past, but without any details? He doesn’t name the victim(s); he doesn’t specify how long ago (last week? 25 years ago?) and he doesn’t say where (this city? three counties down the road? three states away?) With such little details, what’s a prosecutor to prosecute anyway? Are they going to haul him up on charges of “diddling somebody, somewhere, sometime”? How specific do the charges have to be, before there can be a legal case? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/36 "2014-06-08T11:50:52Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > This is a no-brainer. The child victim comes first. If this had not been reported the upshot would be a young girl out there, frightened, traumatized, with no support (she clearly hadn’t told her parents). Do you really want to put the interest of the pedophile above that of the victim? > > Mandatory reporting is important for the sake of the victims. Do you think it should also apply to Ministers of religion and Attorneys? In my view it all depends on the value placed on the sanctity of the profession. It is merely a social fact (not an absolute one) that we have chosen to value client-attorney and confessional privilege above medical well-being of the population. As such the decisions are bound to vary according to the social mores of each society. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/37 "2014-06-08T17:25:14Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m stunned by this thread because I had no idea that mandatory reporting laws applied to the patient. I thought that anything I told my doctor/therapist was confidential and protected much like a client’s conversation with an attorney. > > If a client comes into my office and says that he killed his mother and buried her under his garage, I cannot say anything to anyone. If he says that he plans on killing his mother this evening, then I MAY report that to the authorities if I choose. It varies by both jurisdiction and profession. Therapists are required to provide informed consent (or attempt to receive assent where consent isn’t required) that identifies the _limits_ to confidentiality and privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/38 "2014-06-08T17:47:33Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > What happens if the pedophile client tells the therapist of crimes he’s committed in the past, but without any details? He doesn’t name the victim(s); he doesn’t specify how long ago (last week? 25 years ago?) and he doesn’t say where (this city? three counties down the road? three states away?) > > With such little details, what’s a prosecutor to prosecute anyway? Are they going to haul him up on charges of “diddling somebody, somewhere, sometime”? How specific do the charges have to be, before there can be a legal case? The answer would depend on whether the police could investigate and turn up anything. You don’t go straight from report to prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/39 "2014-06-08T20:23:23Z")
> [@](#): > > What happens if the pedophile client tells the therapist of crimes he’s committed in the past, but without any details? He doesn’t name the victim(s); he doesn’t specify how long ago (last week? 25 years ago?) and he doesn’t say where (this city? three counties down the road? three states away?) The therapist isn’t allowed to “investigate.” In most US areas, suspicion of abuse of a person in a vulnerable class triggers an automatic requirement to report, not a requirement to decide whether a report is really warranted. This means the therapist must contact the state child welfare agency, provide the information to the extent that it’s known, and then that agency investigates, which is where a determination about legal action would come in. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250/40 "2014-06-09T21:50:32Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I came across an article about a man charged with molesting an underage girl. This part really stood out to me– > [Wisconsin Billionaire Pleads Guilty to Sexual Assault Charge](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/wisconsin-billionaire-pleads-guilty-sexual-assault-charge-n124951) > > It sounds as if he was trying to stop, and was seeking professional help to that end. Instead of getting help, he gets a jail sentence that does no good whatsoever (regardless of how you view it), and an astoundingly small fine. It’s the worst of both worlds–no help and quite likely no deterrence, either. > > I think that counselors and therapists should be **prohibited** from reporting such clients, at least in most cases. There might be a few exceptions for unusual cases, but we should be encouraging people with such urges to do whatever they can to avoid acting on them or at least to stop acting on them. So, just let him keep molesting the girl until he dosn’t want to do it anymore? Are you for real? I am actually sickened by your idea. God I wish this was the pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-reporting-laws-should-be-re-thought/690250.md?page=1)