# Mandatory vaccination **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [July 14, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494 "2021-07-14T19:22:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/101 "2021-08-06T15:43:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This could be a reality in the not-too-distant future. If I’m an insurance company, why would I want to pay for some moron who refuses to do a very simple thing that would cut potentially tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars? Consider that this is also why insurance companies want to set premiums based on pre-existing conditions and health status. Someone who is overweight, sedentary, and smokes will also likely have increased heathcare costs. Isn’t there currently an agreement with the insurance companies that they will cover Covid expenses without copay? The insurance companies could do away with that special agreement for unvaccinated. And also the government program to reimburse for Covid healthcare could only be for those who are vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/102 "2021-08-06T15:45:14Z")
I could be wrong but I think that agreement might have expired. TBH I don’t see how the insurance markets can continue to eat these costs - COVID is a resource hog. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/103 "2021-08-06T15:47:29Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Someone who is overweight, sedentary, and smokes will also likely have increased heathcare costs. There is always a question about where do you draw the line, but a COVID vaccination is pretty damn easy - the ones you mentioned take major lifestyle changes to instill new habits. And my wife’s employer is dancing around charging overweight people a healthcare premium, or is at least acting like that is in the offing. And smokers already pay a premium. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/104 "2021-08-06T15:57:42Z")
Probably what would be useful is if the government put the various vaccines into ranked categories of importance and then businesses and insurance companies could set policy based on those categories. Although I think everyone should get the Covid vaccine, I don’t like how it’s just a hodge-podge of businesses and organizations making up their own decisions about who should get it. I don’t think people should have to trust their healthcare decisions to whatever McDonald’s thinks is important. Rather, the government should say that certain vaccines are in well-defined categories like Highly Recommended, Strongly Recommended, Recommended, and Optional. Then businesses could say that they require all employees to have the vaccines in certain categories. Hospitals could say everyone has to have Recommended and above, McDonald’s could say Strongly and above, etc. As new vaccines are produced, they are put into the appropriate categories and the businesses don’t have to get into fights with their employees about it. Of course, there would be ways for people to get medical exceptions if they couldn’t take the vaccine, but the business could still set policies based on these categories rather than any specific vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/105 "2021-08-06T22:24:51Z")
As long as those with an actual medical reason for avoiding the vaccine are not affected by such a rule I’m all for it. The number of people for whom that genuinely applies should be a very small percentage of the population - I’m willing to cover those who can’t get vaccinated as opposed to those who won’t. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/106 "2021-08-07T00:43:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > My issue is with the enforcement. Children are required to go to school. To go to school you have to get vaccinated. Unless you are hiding children in your closet, they will be exposed to the system and have to be vaccinated. > > How will that work with adults? Nothing is 100 percent. There always are lawbreakers. Some will homeschool their kids to prevent them from getting the COVID vaccine, as now happens with existing legally required childhood jabs. Also, if the penalty is a fine – and I can’t see filling jails with known contagious people – some rich people will gladly pay. [How was smallpox vaccination enforced with adults](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/) back when it was? We can look into that, but I’m sure it was imperfect, and also know it was good enough. Today, if someone openly admits to being in vaccine refusal, my response is to ignore it, or to say that they are wrong in their thinking. I’d rather be in the position of making the factual statement that they are breaking the law than criticizing their way of thinking. And I think a lot of conservatives – not all – would rather obey a law than do what people like me say is smarter. The message of these complicated mandates is that somehow the vaccine is less important than something like childhood vaccines and seat belts, where the law is clear… And the case for mandatory COVID is much better than for seat belts because – even though seat belts are big life-savers on balance – they cause far more injuries than any vaccine. Smallpox? Wasn’t that a lot scarier than COVID? Often – no. In the U.S. after 1825 or so, smallpox was almost always variola minor, the milder strain that didn’t ruin your complexion. The old fashioned vaccine requirement applies here. A simple law is traditional and likely to be passed eventually, at least for children. Better sooner than later. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/107 "2021-08-07T01:12:28Z")
I take a dim view of “personal freedom” where a pandemic is concerned. Time to impose crushing fines upon unvaccinated people, and jail time if they persist. Exceptions only for those with real medical issues that would make vaccination unsafe. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/108 "2021-08-07T08:41:14Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Smallpox? Wasn’t that a lot scarier than COVID? Often – no. In the U.S. after 1825 or so, smallpox was almost always variola minor, the milder strain that didn’t ruin your complexion. Slightly incorrect. _V. minor_ caused less scarring, not no scarring. Another thing about smallpox - the vaccine scar was a permanent and lasting proof of vaccination (You can still see mine more than 50 years after the fact), and pretty damn hard to forge. Proof of vaccination was required for international travel. Even in freedom-drunk America in some cities a block would be cordoned off and people were asked to show their vaccine scar and if they didn’t have one would be vaccinated regardless of their protests. In some countries the military was involved and there were instances of people being vaccinated at gunpoint although that was rare. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/109 "2021-08-07T13:10:16Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Rather, the government should say that certain vaccines are in well-defined categories like Highly Recommended, Strongly Recommended, Recommended, and Optional. Then businesses could say that they require all employees to have the vaccines in certain categories. Hospitals could say everyone has to have Recommended and above, McDonald’s could say Strongly and above, etc. It’s not that simple. For instance, people in some occupations might plausibly have contact with other people’s blood, while other occupations won’t. There are some bloodborne diseases which are very serious, and so vaccines against those diseases are important for people who might come into contact with blood, but very unlikely to be relevant for anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/110 "2021-08-08T11:51:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Another thing about smallpox - the vaccine scar was a permanent and lasting proof of vaccination (You can still see mine more than 50 years after the fact), and pretty damn hard to forge. Count on bureaucrats to be screwed up about that. I had the smallpox vax as a child and had the scar to prove it. But when I graduated from high school (Class of 1969!) and went to Berkeley, they required everyone to have the vax to get in. My idiot parents didn’t keep medical records for me (or if they did, they never passed them on to me). So when Berkeley demanded my proof of vax, I pointed out the obvious scar. Sorry, not good enough. They couldn’t accept that. So I had to get vaxxed again. Fast forward many years. The scar is no longer visible. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/111 "2021-08-08T11:59:42Z")
The size of the smallpox vax scar varied according to when it was done. Earlier techniques (ca. 1915) left a large area more than an inch across (my mom had one). Fifty years later, the scar (from new vaxing) was almost invisible (you can’t see mine). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/112 "2021-08-08T12:04:32Z")
So I had TWO smallpox vaxes and two scars, the second one being from 1969. IIRC they were about 1/2 inch across. They were quite visible and distinctive for many many years, but gradually faded. But they weren’t good enough as “proof” of vaccination. Any young-uns on this Board who don’t know what a smallpox vax scar looks like, there are plenty of pics around that you can google up. Here’s a thought: Maybe they should design the Covid vax (and others) deliberately to leave a scar like the smallpox vax did. Then all us vaxxed folks could wear it like a badge of honor! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/113 "2021-08-08T12:28:51Z")
While a smallpox vax scar is pretty distinctive, it also wouldn’t be hard to fake, if there were some incentive for that. Though I suppose it would at least be harder to fake than those little paper cards. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/114 "2021-08-08T18:46:37Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > But when I graduated from high school (Class of 1969!) and went to Berkeley, they required everyone to have the vax to get in. My idiot parents didn’t keep medical records for me (or if they did, they never passed them on to me). So when Berkeley demanded my proof of vax, I pointed out the obvious scar. Sorry, not good enough. They couldn’t accept that. So I had to get vaxxed again. To someone who has never gotten that vaccine, this seems so strange. Before you even graduated from Berkeley they had completely stopped giving the vaccine in the US (except to military folks). I imagined that there was a petering out leading up to the discontinuation in 1972, so it’s a bit startling to hear that the college was still so gung ho so shortly before they stopped giving it to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/115 "2021-08-08T21:38:15Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Another thing about smallpox - the vaccine scar was a permanent and lasting proof of vaccination (You can still see mine more than 50 years after the fact), and pretty damn hard to forge. > > Count on bureaucrats to be screwed up about that. I had the smallpox vax as a child and had the scar to prove it. But when I graduated from high school (Class of 1969!) and went to Berkeley, they required everyone to have the vax to get in. My idiot parents didn’t keep medical records for me (or if they did, they never passed them on to me). So when Berkeley demanded my proof of vax, I pointed out the obvious scar. Sorry, not good enough. They couldn’t accept that. So I had to get vaxxed again. > > Fast forward many years. The scar is no longer visible. As a possible defense of the bureaucrats - a smallpox vaccination is only for life IF you are regularly exposed to the virus. This was no longer a common occurrence much of the world past the latter half of the 19th century. Otherwise, the vaccination is only good for about 10 years. So they might have wanted to know how recently you’d been vaccinated and if more than 10 years or “unknown” that’s why they wanted you to get another. Or maybe they were just idiots. I don’t know, I wasn’t there. > [@elfkin477](#): > > To someone who has never gotten that vaccine, this seems so strange. Before you even graduated from Berkeley they had completely stopped giving the vaccine in the US (except to military folks). I imagined that there was a petering out leading up to the discontinuation in 1972, so it’s a bit startling to hear that the college was still so gung ho so shortly before they stopped giving it to anyone. A campus like Berkley would have had international students, and there was a real fear that a case that slipped through the net and traveled internationally might re-establish smallpox where it had already been eradicated. Which might or might not have been a factor. Even if the vaccine wasn’t mandatory for everyone in the US after 1972 travel to or from certain parts of the world still required it. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/116 "2021-08-10T00:34:04Z")
I favor taking the risk, but this did happen: [The Montréal Vaccine Riot of 1885](https://www.cmaj.ca/content/193/14/E490) > [@](#): > > On Sept. 28, the Board of Health announced that vaccination was to be made compulsory. In response, a “howling mob” surrounded the East End Branch Health Office that evening and “wrecked” the building. Protestors were as concerned with matters of identity as with vaccination, shouting phrases like, “Hurrah for the French-Canadians; Montréal is no longer for the English nor Irish.” . . . > > Ultimately, the outbreak resulted in at least 19,905 cases and 5,964 deaths in the province of Quebec, with 3,259 of these deaths in Montréal alone. > > The outcome of the riot was neither capitulation to the demands of antivaccine activists, nor a heavy-handed enforcement of policy. Rather, after this epidemic, the opposition to vaccination shifted to courtrooms and activist leagues. Ontario passed a _Vaccination Act_ in 1887, which required that “parents must have their children vaccinated against smallpox within three months of birth and re-vaccinated when necessary every seven years.” It allowed cities to issue vaccination orders in the event of a smallpox outbreak . . . Some people would be upset for a while. And many people who might have died will live. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/117 "2021-08-10T15:04:24Z")
You might find the book “An American Doctor’s Odyssey” by Dr. Victor Heiser entertaining. He describes the difficulty in vaccinating the people of the Philippine islands against smallpox. The book is available at [archive.org](http://archive.org). He wrote of telling one “vaccine refuser” that one of his greatest pleasures was attending the funerals of those who had refused to be vaccinated, and making sure that the facts were published in the local newspapers. (That person changed their mind.) In another instance, he wrote of an associate vaccinating people from an area where they purposely scarified their bodies. The people there demanded the treatment, even after the Doctor ran out of the vaccine. So the Doctor went through the motions, but told the people they had to come back for a “second treatment”. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/118 "2021-08-11T00:31:10Z")
> [@Bonum\_Legatum](#): > > You might find the book “An American Doctor’s Odyssey” by Dr. Victor Heiser entertaining. He describes the difficulty in vaccinating the people of the Philippine islands against smallpox. Thank you! I had been slowly reading Philip Roth’s Pulitzer winning American Pastoral as it vacillated between the superb, the uninteresting, and the unpleasant. I wonder if all the little stories are true, but Heiser’s National Book Award winner is more fun. Getting back to the thread: [America has a long history of vaccination mandates. Why should the worst plague in a century be any different?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/10/vaccination-mandates-are-american-apple-pie/) > [@](#): > > Republicans who oppose “defunding the police” or support a “war on terrorism” recognize that there is no freedom without security. They are willing to accept substantial infringements on civil liberties to combat criminals and terrorists. Yet they insist on dropping our guard against a pandemic that has already killed nearly as many (617,000 and counting) as died in battle during all U.S. wars combined. > > Ever since George Washington forced his troops to be inoculated against smallpox in 1777, Americans have routinely complied with vaccination mandates. Such mandates are, in fact, as American as apple pie. As Scientific American noted: “Every state and Washington, D.C., requires routine vaccinations, such as for measles, mumps and rubella, as a condition of school attendance.” > > The Supreme Court, in 1905 and 1922, upheld the legality of requiring people to get their shots. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/119 "2021-08-12T03:51:49Z")
I was in the Navy from 1981 through 1983, I had to get a new smallpox vaccine in boot camp. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494/120 "2021-08-19T16:47:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I guess it would be wrong if we announced a big anti-vax, anti mask rally, and then darted everyone in the crowd with sharpshooters with vaccine rifles. Sort of like how they tranquilize big game animals to put radio tags on them That would be extremely unethical and immoral. Instead take them to some isolated arctic island, declare it “The Republic of Anti-science Land”, take away all of their possessions, and then see how their freedom and independence work out. 😀 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mandatory-vaccination/946494.md?page=7)