I don’t know if this qualifies as “manga for adults” exactly (the two main protagonists are children/teens), but I’m an adult and I’m currently enjoying Fullmetal Alchemist, courtesy of my public library. I find the secondary military characters and their history actually much more interesting than the main storyline – there’s some good psychological meat there regarding the horror of war, which I dig. The world Hiromu Arakawa has created (alchemy being a blend of science and magic, the awesomely nasty homunculi, etc) is really fascinating, too.
So what about Lone Wolf and Cub makes it graphic novel rather than manga? None of the above really apply (except for the mature audience thing, which isn’t particularly distinctive).
Originally (in the U.S.), ‘graphic novel’ referred to book-length, or at least book-bound, usually softcover versions of standard episodic comic books with an original story, or to wholly original one-shot comics of appropriate length. Now, though, the term has come to be also used for any square-bound compilation of episodic comics. They are almost always standard comic-book size, about 8x10 inches.
‘Tankoubon’ is the Japanese term for collections of episodic manga, usually 5x7 or smaller format. (The original publication was generally episodic in 8x10 magazines.) An imitation of this format is what we get for the majority of manga translated here.
Essentially, the distinction between American ‘graphic novel’ and Japanese ‘tankoubon’ is non-existent nowadays, save for the few ‘original graphic novels’–the fact that ‘original’ has to be added tells you something–or if you define by size.
I don’t know if anything in Japan is published originally in a stand-alone square-bound (tankoubon-like) format.
gS49
Yes, I’m quite familiar with the terms graphic novel and tankobon (and I don’t agree that compilations of comics are referred to as graphic novels… they’re usually called trade paperbacks).
nevermore made a quite unusual distinction between manga and graphic novel re: Lone Wolf and Cub. I can’t think of any reason why LWaC would not be considered manga, so I’m interested in clarification. I have no doubt that here in Japan it is considered manga.
It the anime “Perfect Blue” is based on a manga, it’s probably very much the sort of thing you’re looking for.
Heh, yes, I know what manga is, and what graphic novels are. What I was wondering was why you seemed to be defining them as mutually exclusive. What about manga (which is just a generic Japanese term for “comic”) differentiates it from a graphic novel? How is Lone Wolf and Cub not manga? How is a manga, published in a high quality trade-sized format, not also a graphic novel?
Do you not acknowledge that “graphic novel” implies something different from “comic”? Yes, it is a comic, but it’s a specific type of comic that commonly possesses a smattering of the characteristics I described.
Same for manga. Also a comic; also carries its own connotations. They’re not mutually exclusive. The line blurs in many places (like Lone Wolf and Cub), but in general, the two terms are useful distinctions for separating two usually quite different types of comics. I mean, what do you think of when you think of manga? Is it or is it not different from what you think of when you think of graphic novels? You wouldn’t group the Sandman series in with manga any more than you’d group Great Teacher Onizuka with graphic novels.
Also, I understand what manga means when used as a Japanese word, but it’s rather taken on its own meaning as a loanword in English, such that when someone says “a manga-influenced comic book”, most of us know what they are talking about.
All right, some clarification in order. A graphic novel is a single story presented in a novel-size book (although usually divided into a number of issues in the original comic publication). Pretty much everything in Marvel’s MAX line is a graphic novel. Doens’t have to be mature-themed, it’s just that that’s how single lengthy stories usually go. A tankubon is a collection of a number of manga chapters, in the order they originally appeared in the manga catalog (don’t know the exact term for this), and generally done at least several months afterward. They’re all about the same length, so they’re not neatly divided between arcs and plots. Of course, an American publisher can choose to alter the lengths and even rename them to make things fit better (as Viz used to do all the time).
Anyway, as far as the OP goes…the only one that comes to mind (that wasn’t a single-volume throwaway) is Fist of the North Star. Not only are the vast majority of characters adults, the subject matter is really gritty…struggle for survival in a lawless postapocalyptic world…and lots and lots of people get killed, nearly all in graphic fashion. Sadly, two American manga companies pulled the plug on it, and no one else has stepped up.
I’ve reached the sad conclusion that mature-themed manga with mature characters just does not sell in America. Hard to accept, but if Fist of the North Star couldn’t make it…
(P.S.: I’ve read Maison Ikkoku. My only advice on that is, unless you’re currently a struggling college student, don’t bother.)
amarinth, I suppose I’m still wondering why you want older people specifically, but, what ever floats the boat.
If you don’t mind gore and violence, I’d recommend ‘Hellsing’ or ‘Wild Adapter’. ‘Hellsing’ is a new variation on the Dracula story with Nazis added for flavor. ‘WA’ is a mix of ages with yakuza and a mystery drug that changes people into monsters. If you want an old story with youngish people (20-somethings) I’d go with ‘Saiyuki’ since it’s a good story and is up to 16 volumes. If you’d like a selection of interesting small fairy tales, I’d suggest 'Mushishi". It’s very gentle art work at a slower pace.
Good luck!
Good point. I haven’t thought of them that way because I guess it’s pretty rare to see the full collection in one book, but you’re right that it’s really one story.
Okay, so you’re saying that to you manga is a genre?
Sure, but not much of one, and only in terms of format, not content. A single monthly issue is a comic, the collection thereof is a graphic novel. DKW made a good effort at creating a useful definition of the term, but in my experience, that’s not how most people use it: in practice, it’s interchangable with “trade paperback,” and I expect that “trade” will eventually supplant “graphic novel” entirely.
Sure, I think of two different things: one is a publication format, and one is a very broad artistic style. Neither connotates anything particular in terms of content, though. Which is not to say that there aren’t different market demands between the West and the East. There are stories and tropes that are very popular in Japan, which are consequently highly represented in Japanese comics, that don’t get much play in Western comics, and vice-versa. But it would be a mistake to say that those sorts of stories are definitional to the terms “graphic novel” or “manga,” respectively.
True, which just furthers my point: when someone describes a “manga-influenced” comic book, they are almost never going to be talking about the content. When someone describes a new Superman comic as being “manga-influenced,” they’re talking about the ratio between the size of his eyes and the size of his mouth, not re-imagining Supes as a magical schoolgirl with a pet robot.
Unfortunately, all the manga I read like that (like Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou or Say Hello to Blackjack) aren’t translated by anyone but fan groups. And even they tend to translate a story or two and then stop. I’m not sure what to do about that, aside from writing these titles in when Tokyopop asks what it should pick up. (Which it’s done at least once on its website.)
Shounen and shoujo seem like kind of the Superhero comics of manga. Yes, comics have everything for everyone, but it’s so much harder to find something that isn’t Spider-man or One Piece.
Granted, I love both Spider-man and One Piece, so it works out for me.
Because I grew up.
And sometimes, most of the time, in fact, I want to read about characters who have grown up as well.
These days, most of the text based novels I read are about adults who have adult issues and adult problems. I was looking for something similar, in a manga format.
I found the first volume of Antique Bakery, and quite liked it.
Miller (and cckerberos), I hate to say it, but honestly, I’m just not all that interested in debating the fine points of comicry. To me, yes, graphic novel means something different than manga. I think of manga, I think of GTO, Initial D, Chobits, Get Backers, et cetera. For graphic novels, I think Hellblazer, Sandman, and Frank Miller’s reimaginings of traditional comic fare. I think darker, more mature, and better illustrated. Sure there are departures from what’s best known in any category, but really, these are just the paradigms that have formed in my head due to the experiences I’ve had. If they don’t suit you, well, um… sorry.
FTR, Wikipedia acknowledges the very controversy we are discussing here. Take that as you will; all I can give you further is a very big shrug.
amarinth - There is an entire manga genre that deals with day-to-day adult issues…work, money, relationships, cars, alcohol (and drunkenness), politics, living expenses, etc. Other than a few specials, however, I can’t name a single title that ever got translated. The demand just isn’t there. Well, there’s demand, just not enough demand. Which, again, is what killed a lot of extremely promising early titles.
Unless you’re willing to learn the language and find a Shirokiya or the equivalent, you’ll just have to get what you can. Gunsmith Cats is pretty good. Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure doesn’t quite qualify, but it’s a great story nonetheless and pretty much screw up-proof.
Yeah, it sucks. Single biggest factor killing my interest in manga, in fact.
That’s fine. Like I said, I’d never seen anyone else make that distinction before, so I was mostly just curious about how you arrived at it.