# Manhattan Fly-by -- really a photo-op? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016 "2009-05-01T20:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/101 "2009-05-08T19:21:01Z")
Yeah, but during the Iraq war we weren’t in “tough economic times” yet, so anything goes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/102 "2009-05-08T19:46:12Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Yeah, but during the Iraq war we weren’t in “tough economic times” yet, so anything goes. Congrats on getting to page 3 on something the President would like to sweep under the rug but you can’t let go. Lets review: -White House does something lame -Lame event wastes money during a recession -End result causes panic -White House tries to block the release of useless pictures -President cuts his losses and apologizes -People continue to defend it after the apology ---
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/103 "2009-05-08T19:58:53Z")
Does anyone know what the breakdown of the $350,000 was? How much of it was for fuel? Salaries of aircrew, ground support and photographers? What else? $350,000 sounds like a lot. Did someone throw in some of the cost of the planes to get to that number? Maybe another way to think of this is how much was this photo-op then if you subtract the cost of the training? Aircrews do have to train. It can’t be all simulators. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/104 "2009-05-08T20:10:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Congrats on getting to page 3 on something the President would like to sweep under the rug but you can’t let go. > > Lets review: > > -White House does something lame > -Lame event wastes money during a recession > -End result causes panic > -White House tries to block the release of useless pictures > -President cuts his losses and apologizes > -People continue to defend it after the apology And congrats to you on continuing to make yourself look petty and foolish. Let’s re-review: - The White House didn’t do shit. The photo-op was not planned by Obama. - It was, for the billionth fucking time, a photo op the likes of which we haven’t seen 'round these parts in oh, the last five minutes of so. It’s you who can’t seem to let go of ignorantly parroting “Oh my god $350k during these tough economic times … swoon” - That did suck. As has been stipulated quite a number of times. - Obama was on record immediately stating that he was “furious” with the situation. Why would he want this to live on. They weren’t ‘blocked’ as in, “Due to national cover my ass security nobody gets to see these.” The were scheduled not to be released because it was basically a fucked up photo-op. That’s what happens when photo ops get fucked up; they don’t release the pictures. - President, while taking the brunt of the fuck up as the Brunt in Chief, did what he had to do, but I wish he’s said what he meant, which was probably something along the lines of “Fine, look at the fucking pictures for all I care.” - It wouldn’t be defended if it weren’t be attacked in such a retarded fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/105 "2009-05-08T20:19:20Z")
The planes have to be ferried to/from their point of origin and AF1 runs about $65,000 an hour. An F16 would probably cost around $5,000 hour. The training issues were already discussed. An F16 is not a primary trainer A/C and crews don’t fly it around just to log hours. The President didn’t apologize because it was on his list of fun things to do. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/106 "2009-05-08T20:23:13Z")
Politico is reporting that Louis Calera, the White House Military Office head, just got fired for the fly-by. Edit: According to [the source story](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/05/08/2009-05-08_white_house_aide_loses_job_over_manhattan_flyover_fiasco.html), it was a resignation, not a firing. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/107 "2009-05-08T20:26:08Z")
Falling on his sword, is more like it. Probably had to happen. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/108 "2009-05-08T20:44:47Z")
Good for him. It’s nice to see someone pay the consequences for a screw-up. Ain’t _that_ a nice change? ---
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/109 "2009-05-08T20:51:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The planes have to be ferried to/from their point of origin and AF1 runs about $65,000 an hour. An F16 would probably cost around $5,000 hour. Planes don’t get “ferried” to training locations, you fly them there. That’s part of the training. > > The training issues were already discussed. An F16 is not a primary trainer A/C and crews don’t fly it around just to log hours. Maybe there is some confusion about the term “training”. My understanding is that pilots are required to fly so many hours a month and they fly their “own” (actually, the government owns them, but they are assigned to the individuals) planes. I would contend that they do fly them around to log hours. > > The President didn’t apologize because it was on his list of fun things to do. That comment doesn’t deserve responding to. Why does no one believe that a lot of the cost was associated with training? Awwww, never mind, I think I understand. Just not worth the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/110 "2009-05-08T20:55:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Politico is reporting that Louis Calera, the White House Military Office head, just got fired for the fly-by. > > Edit: According to [the source story](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/05/08/2009-05-08_white_house_aide_loses_job_over_manhattan_flyover_fiasco.html), it was a resignation, not a firing. My mistake. I guess there’s no word if he’s getting a Presidential Medal of Freedom for his screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/111 "2009-05-08T21:08:22Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Let’s re-review: > > - The White House didn’t do shit. Yeah, that’s why Obama apologized. What was I thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/112 "2009-05-08T21:09:29Z")
> [@luvrbcs](#): > > Why does no one believe that a lot of the cost was associated with training? > Awwww, never mind, I think I understand. Just not worth the debate. Keeping an F16 from falling out of the sky is not training. It’s a waste of the pilot’s time and tax payer money. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/113 "2009-05-08T21:22:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yeah, that’s why Obama apologized. What was I thinking. As I said, Brunt in Chief. You don’t actually think Obama okayed this before hand, do you? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/114 "2009-05-08T21:35:11Z")
[Here](http://twitpic.com/4svm3)’s one of the photos in question. > [@](#): > > I guess there’s no word if he’s getting a Presidential Medal of Freedom for his screw up. Pssst. Wrong adminiatration. ---
**Author:** ![Improvisor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/50afbb/32.png) [@Improvisor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Improvisor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/115 "2009-05-08T21:46:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Keeping an F16 from falling out of the sky is not training. It’s a waste of the pilot’s time and tax payer money. Are you really being that obtuse? What do you think we pay F16 pilots to do? We pay them to fly F16s. You really just want them to sit around and not fly until the next time they get scrambled to go intercept something? For instance, there was that Canadian guy that flew into US airspace a couple of months back and they sent up some fighters to see what was going on. You really want to send up an F16 pilot that hasn’t flown in F16 in 5 months, because there has been no reason to fly it? That is why they fly training missions all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/116 "2009-05-08T22:17:13Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > [Here](http://twitpic.com/4svm3)’s one of the photos in question.Pssst. Wrong adminiatration. So, to cap it all, the photos they got were lousy. I mean, you’d assume they would release one of the better ones? Not one with cockpit reflections, the Statue of Liberty too small, a distracting boat, and an overall air of “snapped on a cellphone”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/117 "2009-05-08T22:39:50Z")
> [@Improvisor](#): > > Are you really being that obtuse? What do you think we pay F16 pilots to do? We pay them to fly F16s. Following a 747 to take pictures has nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with combat training. A complete waste of the budgeted flight time. > [@Improvisor](#): > > You really just want them to sit around and not fly until the next time they get scrambled to go intercept something?. They don’t sit around waiting to fly. They have scheduled combat training. Flying to “intercept something” involves following the heading instructions from a radar center. This was a photo run with no redeeming training value. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/118 "2009-05-08T22:43:19Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > As I said, Brunt in Chief. You don’t actually think Obama okayed this before hand, do you? Yes, unless you want me to believe he isn’t briefed on what goes on with his staff. Do you think a CEO of a company would not be aware of $350,000 budget request? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/119 "2009-05-08T22:45:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, unless you want me to believe he isn’t briefed on what goes on with his staff. Do you think a CEO of a company would not be aware of $350,000 budget request? Not if the total budget is 10 billion times that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/120 "2009-05-08T22:47:37Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > So, to cap it all, the photos they got were lousy. I mean, you’d assume they would release one of the better ones? Not one with cockpit reflections, the Statue of Liberty too small, a distracting boat, and an overall air of “snapped on a cellphone”. Meanwhile back in post #69 … > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > And they’ll probably be shitty photos that they wouldn’t have otherwise been released because of their shittiness, and we’ll be inundated with, “We paid $300,000 for these shitty photos?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016.md?page=7)