# Manhattan Fly-by -- really a photo-op? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016 "2009-05-01T20:10:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/121 "2009-05-08T23:02:41Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Not if the total budget is 10 billion times that. OH MY GOD. You seriously think the people in the White House can just snap their fingers and spend $350,000 without the President’s knowledge? Any way you slice it it reflects badly on the White House. Since the [FAA new it would cause](http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/04/29/2009-04-29_feds_knew_flyover_might_spark_panic.html) problems I would expect them to convey that information to the President. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/122 "2009-05-08T23:14:51Z")
OH MY GOD. The White House just spent $350,000 stocking the kitchen. I wonder if Obama signed the invoice. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/123 "2009-05-08T23:27:41Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Meanwhile back in post #69 … > [QUOTE=Jack Batty] > And they’ll probably be shitty photos that they wouldn’t have otherwise been released because of their shittiness, and we’ll be inundated with, “We paid $300,000 for these shitty photos?” [/QUOTE] Sorry for inundating you with that post. I just thought it was a crappy photo. I am not a US taxpayer, so I don’t really care how much it cost, and I agree that in the grand scheme of things it was peanuts. I’ve said as much elsewhere. I found the whole episode very funny, I loved it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/124 "2009-05-08T23:38:23Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > OH MY GOD. The White House just spent $350,000 stocking the kitchen. I wonder if Obama signed the invoice. If they serve $100/lb steak to a stadium of 3,500 people then he’ll be apologizing for that too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/125 "2009-05-09T03:44:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OH MY GOD. You seriously think the people in the White House can just snap their fingers and spend $350,000 without the President’s knowledge? Why, yes. The annual budget of the Executive Office of the President is a little over $300 million. You think the President signs off on six-figure expenditures? Oh, wait, here’s the kicker: the money was almost certainly from the Air Force budget, which is more like $120 billion a year. > [@](#): > > Any way you slice it it reflects badly on the White House. Since the [FAA new it would cause](http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/04/29/2009-04-29_feds_knew_flyover_might_spark_panic.html) problems I would expect them to convey that information to the President. And that is the exact reason that Louis Caldera got fired this afternoon: he should have been passing on that information to others. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/126 "2009-05-09T04:28:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And that is the exact reason that Louis Caldera got fired this afternoon: he should have been passing on that information to others. As would the FAA and everybody else in on it. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/127 "2009-05-09T17:35:47Z")
Do we know why the FAA was asked not to release the information to the public? I’m guessing it was considered a security issue. Leaving aside the question of whether this photo flight was a good idea or not (it wasn’t), I can understand why the military would not want the public having advance information about where AF-1 would be flying. Especially when planning to fly at low altitude. The FAA issues Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) when the president or other VIPs are flying. But those TFRs only say “VIP movement”, not WHO the VIP is. So there is precedent for advance notice of a sort, but I think they stop short of saying AF-1 and/or the president will be flying in x location at y time. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/128 "2009-05-09T17:56:29Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Do we know why the FAA was asked not to release the information to the public? > > I’m guessing it was considered a security issue. Leaving aside the question of whether this photo flight was a good idea or not (it wasn’t), I can understand why the military would not want the public having advance information about where AF-1 would be flying. Especially when planning to fly at low altitude. > > The FAA issues Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) when the president or other VIPs are flying. But those TFRs only say “VIP movement”, not WHO the VIP is. So there is precedent for advance notice of a sort, but I think they stop short of saying AF-1 and/or the president will be flying in x location at y time. It’s a guess, but if any home grown or imported terrorists do have ready access to a surface to air missile, advanced knowledge would enable said individuals to set up in ambush. Realistically, it sounds more like a culture of need to know, and for some reason New Yorker’s had no need. Piss poor planning really. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/129 "2009-05-09T18:14:32Z")
So, why does anyone care about the cash involved? Yes, 350k is a lot on an individual scale, but the government has been dispensing cash lately on the order of a trillion dollars. That’s enough to buy a New York panic each day for _all of recorded history_. I can understand getting worked up over buzzing Manhattan in the first place, which was why Obama apologized for his subordinates’ actions, but the money isn’t worth ten seconds of his attention. If you hadn’t noticed, he has a few problems to take care of. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/130 "2009-05-09T19:14:47Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Do we know why the FAA was asked not to release the information to the public? > [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I speculated on this early based on conversations I had with individuals in the airline industry. AF1 is assigned a great deal of security when it is flies do to it’s publicized flight. When the President is not aboard the aircraft it does not have this level of security but is still considered a high risk target so they keep it’s movement secret. I don’t know how accurate that is but it fits the event discussed. > > I’m guessing it was considered a security issue. Leaving aside the question of whether this photo flight was a good idea or not (it wasn’t), I can understand why the military would not want the public having advance information about where AF-1 would be flying. Especially when planning to fly at low altitude. > > The FAA issues Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) when the president or other VIPs are flying. But those TFRs only say “VIP movement”, not WHO the VIP is. So there is precedent for advance notice of a sort, but I think they stop short of saying AF-1 and/or the president will be flying in x location at y time. Both the TFR’s and the President’s itinerary are posted on the internet for all to see so matching them up is a given. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/131 "2009-05-09T20:06:34Z")
> [@Rolken](#): > > So, why does anyone care about the cash involved? Yes, 350k is a lot on an individual scale, but the government has been dispensing cash lately on the order of a trillion dollars. That’s enough to buy a New York panic each day for _all of recorded history_. > > I can understand getting worked up over buzzing Manhattan in the first place, which was why Obama apologized for his subordinates’ actions, but the money isn’t worth ten seconds of his attention. If you hadn’t noticed, he has a few problems to take care of. Well, I think people should always get worked up by government waste. $350,000 may seem little compared to the budget but it adds up quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/132 "2009-05-09T20:09:54Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Do we know why the FAA was asked not to release the information to the public? I speculated on this early based on conversations I had with individuals in the airline industry. AF1 is assigned a great deal of security when it is flies do to it’s publicized flight. When the President is not aboard the aircraft it does not have this level of security but is still considered a high risk target so they keep it’s movement secret. I don’t know how accurate that is but it fits the event discussed. > [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I’m guessing it was considered a security issue. Leaving aside the question of whether this photo flight was a good idea or not (it wasn’t), I can understand why the military would not want the public having advance information about where AF-1 would be flying. Especially when planning to fly at low altitude. > > The FAA issues Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) when the president or other VIPs are flying. But those TFRs only say “VIP movement”, not WHO the VIP is. So there is precedent for advance notice of a sort, but I think they stop short of saying AF-1 and/or the president will be flying in x location at y time. Both the TFR’s and the President’s itinerary are posted on the internet for all to see so matching them up is a given. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/133 "2009-05-09T20:33:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well, I think people should always get worked up by government waste. $350,000 may seem little compared to the budget but it adds up quickly. You do realize that $350,000 is less than one half of one millionth of the $787 billion stimulus bill, right? And the Air Force is claiming that it wasn’t even a waste of money, as they’d be spending it on training regardless. It’s not like you’ve provided any solid evidence that the Air Force actually has enough combat training for all their pilots to fulfill their required hours only on that. It does seem that the money could have been better spent, but I see no reason to call it a total waste. And I certainly have no reason to believe that President Obama took any personal role in the whole endeavor, aside from perhaps being asked if he was going to need the plane (although I believe there are at least two planes that are available for the President’s use, so I’m not sure how necessary it is to bother him about the details, as long as he has one that he can jump on, should the need arise). ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/134 "2009-05-09T20:52:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Both the TFR’s and the President’s itinerary are posted on the internet for all to see so matching them up is a given. Not every TFR is a presidential TFR. Their are other VIPs who travel under TFRs. I suppose we could guess based on the president’s itinerary, as you say. But TFRs are rather general. They give an active time (which can be for hours) and a radius of action, but that’s as specific as they get. You’d have a hard time trying to plan an a hostile action against AF-1 with only that information. But saying, “AF-1 is going to buzz the Statue of Liberty at 3:05 today”, would be inviting trouble. Hence my guess as to why that information was not publicized. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/135 "2009-05-10T00:20:21Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > I suppose we could guess based on the president’s itinerary, as you say. But TFRs are rather general. They give an active time (which can be for hours) and a radius of action, but that’s as specific as they get. You’d have a hard time trying to plan an a hostile action against AF-1 with only that information. You think double parking is a problem for terrorists?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/136 "2009-05-10T00:26:03Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > You do realize that $350,000 is less than one half of one millionth of the $787 billion stimulus bill, right? And the Air Force is claiming that it wasn’t even a waste of money, as they’d be spending it on training regardless. It’s not like you’ve provided any solid evidence that the Air Force actually has enough combat training for all their pilots to fulfill their required hours only on that. It does seem that the money could have been better spent, but I see no reason to call it a total waste. > . 10 stupid decisions times $350,000 would employ quite a few people. As for training, it would be like a formula one racer driving to the track and considering the drive useful training. I don’t understand the logic in the defense of something that already generated an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/137 "2009-05-10T00:30:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 10 stupid decisions times $350,000 would employ quite a few people. > > As for training, it would be like a formula one racer driving to the track and considering the drive useful training. > > I don’t understand the logic in the defense of something that already generated an apology. Can you please cite for us what makes you such an expert on what does, and doesn’t qualify as worthwhile training time for an Air Force pilot? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/138 "2009-05-10T00:55:31Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Can you please cite for us what makes you such an expert on what does, and doesn’t qualify as worthwhile training time for an Air Force pilot? > > -Joe You mean besides being a pilot, with a plane hangared at an F-16 training base and someone possessing basic common sense? I fly closer to aircaft every year going into Oshkosh and I’ve done a fair amount of aerial photography. Rendezvousing with a 747 to take pictures is a waste of military training time. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/139 "2009-05-10T13:31:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You mean besides being a pilot, with a plane hangared at an F-16 training base and someone possessing basic common sense? > > I fly closer to aircaft every year going into Oshkosh and I’ve done a fair amount of aerial photography. Rendezvousing with a 747 to take pictures is a waste of military training time. Congratulations on being an amateur pilot. So, cites from the Air Force on it? Anything? How about ex-pilot right-wing whackjobs? Surely you can find one of those who has something negative to say about it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016/140 "2009-05-10T13:38:09Z")
I don’t see anyone defending the photo op, other than me saying I understand that photos have to be updated periodically, but that this was done completely wrong. Everyone else is saying $350k isn’t a lot of money for the government. And it isn’t. Basically, you are so worked up about this incident, which will be forgotten soon enough, that non-hysteria looks like “defending the undefendable” to you. But then, I’m sure you’re worked up over everything Obama does, big or small. I’m doubting you have much perspective on what constitutes a minor gaffe and what constitutes the march toward socialism, or whatever the teabaggers want to call it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manhattan-fly-by-really-a-photo-op/495016.md?page=8)